Shotgun Penetration Test

[chezuki]

 

[Thor]

My personal choice for indoor, close range social work is the .50 BMG. Anything less and you run the risk of having the projectile bounce right off the sternum. Birdshot is for total pussies. I've seen 18 month old infants shrug off a 3" 12 gauge bird shot blast from 3 feet. Only to start crying again after they stop rolling. No penetration what so ever. Don't take the chance when your life depends on it. Anything less than the .50 BMG and you're just asking for trouble. Just be damn sure to mask your windows, and use hearing protection. Also, go with API rounds. Use what will get the job done!

Now that's some comedy there...thanks for the chuckle.

And while anything that will incapacitate will indeed pass through building material probably not so after passing through a body. Otherwise why would you make anything other than birdshot or a .22?

 

[billt]

And remember....Above all: If the photo doesn't fit the narrative..........Start screaming PHOTOSHOP immediately!!

 

[Sling10mm]

Maybe that is a photo of someone who took both barrels from an Uncle Joe special...

 

[billt]

Maybe that is a photo of someone who took both barrels from an Uncle Joe special...

I think it was Photoshopped by aliens at Area 51.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Believe whatever you like. I'll take personal experience in seeing the wounds in both humans and animals over a photo of unknown providence off the web. If the hole was smaller and there were powder burns, to indicate a near contact shot, birdshot could make a ragged hole. At the point its spread to be larger than a fist and completely obliterates muscle and bone to just leave a gaping hole? No.

 

[lovemachine]

OP, I think you should take this class:

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...ve-shotgun-fundamentals-16aug14-riley-cc.html

 

[huntall50]

OP defined use as 10-15 feet not YARDS, and HD use not shooting moving birds out of the air at 20-40 YARDS.
OK, given any shotgun fired within a house is going to penetrate/over penetrate barriers.
For the detractors of birdshot for HD use, get your shotgun(regardless of gauge) load it with whatever 'birdshot' you choose and pace off 15 ft(5 yards) and fire a shot at a static target(cardboard,wallboard,trees,steel or flesh(animal or human)) and report real results. Or if its too much work, I'm sure you can find a reasonable example behind you keyboard on youtube.

Keep defensive shotgun competition/training out of the equation, where you are trying to get a hit on steel(with enough energy to knock it down-thats why you use 9 pellets of basically 9mm) gong at 20-40 yards.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

For the detractors of birdshot for HD use, get your shotgun(regardless of gauge) load it with whatever 'birdshot' you choose and pace off 15 ft(5 yards) and fire a shot at a static target(cardboard,wallboard,trees,steel or flesh(animal or human)) and report real results.

I'm a detractor and already reported back based on real world shootings of real people and animals, but mostly people.

 

[6mm Shoot]

I watched a guy shoot up some ribs backed by ham to get a picture of what bird shot would do to you fired from 10 or 12'. The number 8 shot wet through the ribs and stopped in the ham 2 to 3". If you were shot with that it would stop your advance. I know I would be trying to find a safer place. Now I use a mix in my shotgun, 3 number 8s fallowed by 3 number 4 buck and then 2 slugs.

 

[rjthebassman]

Hmm. I usually keep an AT-4 on my nightstand loaded with a heat round and a couple impact rounds on a serpa bazooker bandoleer. Thats just me thought

My personal choice for indoor, close range social work is the .50 BMG. Anything less and you run the risk of having the projectile bounce right off the sternum. Birdshot is for total pussies. I've seen 18 month old infants shrug off a 3" 12 gauge bird shot blast from 3 feet. Only to start crying again after they stop rolling. No penetration what so ever. Don't take the chance when your life depends on it. Anything less than the .50 BMG and you're just asking for trouble. Just be damn sure to mask your windows, and use hearing protection. Also, go with API rounds. Use what will get the job done!

 

[BehindBlueI's]

The number 8 shot wet through the ribs and stopped in the ham 2 to 3". If you were shot with that it would stop your advance.

By pain compliance, sure. For someone who's not feeling pain or is dedicated, where is the neurological/physical stop within 2-3" of your ribs? How much is penetration reduced by skin, which is generally considered to equate to about 4" of muscle tissue? What about clothing? That 2-3" is rapidly becoming failure to penetrate much past an inch or stopping at the bone.

 

[huntall50]

I laugh and bore easily at these type of discussion, but shot size for SD always draws me in.

Use what you have confidence in to stop the threat: I have heavy bird shot(Rabbits-Ducks) before I use 00-buck or slugs, but can switch at a moment if needed. I also have follow up shots on tap if needed.

 

[Fordtough25]

First off my 870 is loaded with 00 buck for home defense. I feel I am proficient with that long gun with that ammo at the distances inside my home, it patterns well with my selected load. I have read some very skilled folks, such as Kyle Defoor keep their shotgun loaded with birdshot. He tests his method and knows why he chooses it. I would imagine most people would be best served with 00 buck, or honestly an AR15 carbine.

 

[billt]

I laugh and bore easily at these type of discussion, but shot size for SD always draws me in.

I love to read how these type of threads always descend into how birdshot in a 12 gauge is so ineffective in the confines of a average living room. It borders on the ridiculous. It really shows how common sense has left the building. The evidence........You Tube.

 

[Disposable Heart]

I question the idiot's plan of allowing a guy to come within 10-12' of them in a HD situation so they can save a few bucks on plaster and birdshot.

Just more INGO quarterbacking, Crimson Trace ad mindset that the bad guys are static, easily overwhelmed with just a display of force, dutch loading retardicism... Don't tell me, you use birdshot as your first two, then you have slugs afterwards, right?

Let's be honest here: How much energy do you think buckshot is going to have after tearing through the guy? Minimal at best. So what, it screws up your drywall after leaving the guy, it isn't going to keep going for miles and kill children behind 3" of rolled homogenous steel.

Use what works. You know what works? Buckshot. Slugs. Rifles. Pistols with JHP. Birdshot is dangerous to a person, no doubt, but if you are willing to let the attacker get that close to you and your family, then you are dangerously stupid and putting their lives at risk.

 

[Trigger Time]

That photo is fake as hell!!!

Most people don't even understand how a shotgun will pattern. I wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard someone (even gun guus) say "I use a shotgun that way I can just point in their general direction and kill them". FALSE!!!
a shotgun is a surgical tool even with birdshot in a house. With slugs a shotgun is like a rifle and super accurate further out. The only downfall is lack of ammo capacity. But they have their place for sure!
A shotgun isn't my first gun to grab for home defense however it is one option I do keep in the house and ready. I use 00buck. and a couple slug rounds in a side saddle that I can use it need be (like the person trying to kill me is behind a plaster wall or appliance.

 

[billt]

I question the idiot's plan of allowing a guy to come within 10-12' of them in a HD situation so they can save a few bucks on plaster and birdshot.

Stop talking nonsense. Go measure the average sized living room or bedroom in the average, cookie cutter, suburban home. It's overall dimensions are close to, if not smaller than that. If it was built more than 30 years ago, chances are it will be smaller, and more confining. Not everyone lives in a sprawling, open living concept, 4,000 sq. ft. home. Look at police reports of most in home self defense shootings. Most all take place at ranges closer than those just described.

 

[Disposable Heart]

Stop talking nonsense. Go measure the average sized living room or bedroom in the average, cookie cutter, suburban home. It's overall dimensions are close to, if not smaller than that. If it was built more than 30 years ago, chances are it will be smaller, and more confining. Not everyone lives in a sprawling, open living concept, 4,000 sq. ft. home. Look at police reports of most in home self defense shootings. Most all take place at ranges closer than those just described.

And I will be loading my shotgun with a round that will perform at ALL distances I may enounter within my home, anywhere from contact to 15 yards. I've seen what #6 does to ballistics gelatin at 15 yards (actually 7). Diddly squat.

People who know ballistics, have access to extensive OIS records, as well as citizen shootings (such as Gary Roberts) will NEVER, EVER suggest birdshot. #1 at minimum, 00 is more flexible.

If someone is within 10 feet of you, I would not be worrying about grabbing the gun, most likely worrying how to get the ****** off me so I can get to my gun. If you are that concerned with overpenetration, screwing up some dry wall, I'd hate to see how far of cam your priorities are in terms of family safety and self preservation.

 

[billt]

If you are that concerned with overpenetration, screwing up some dry wall, I'd hate to see how far of cam your priorities are in terms of family safety and self preservation.

I never stated I was "concerned" with any of those things. What I find houmorous is there are people like yourself, who claim to know ballistics, naïve enough to actually believe a 12 gauge shotgun blast into the torso or head of a human from 10 feet or less, will not be sufficient lethal, regardless of shot size. That is ridiculous.