So apparently the Obama raid WAS a kill mission...

[IncendiaryGunner]

Would you have taken him alive?

 

[Ted]

If you are heading where I think you are, I understand the concern, but there are times you simply have to cut the losses. How many among those killed on 9/11 needed that extra chance to change direction?

Understood.

Damnation being a permanent thing, I would rather disobey a presidential directive and move to capture if he wasn't an imminent threat to anyone's well being.

What those in power then do, is on them.

 

[Ted]

Who's soul is in peril?

Would you have taken him alive?

Read up one.

 

[Mosinowner]

Oh no we took out a enemy of the country!!!!! THE HUMANITY!!

 

[John Galt]

Understood.

Damnation being a permanent thing, I would rather disobey a presidential directive and move to capture if he wasn't an imminent threat to anyone's well being.

What those in power then do, is on them.

Damnation? I'd say that the person that eliminates True Evil is FastTracking to heaven! Bin Laden, and evil men like him, killed thousands/millions of people and will/would continue to do so until stopped. Killing them isn't taking a life, it's saving lives. Many lives. Sociopaths like that cannot be reasoned with and will only stop being evil when they reach room temperature. I view this action as honoring and respecting the Life that the Creator gave us.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Read this then discuss.

Revelations on the Killing of Osama bin Laden | Small Wars Journal

WOW! Nothing to discuss after that. I'd have repped you but I have to "spread the love".

BTW, these "Laws of War" exist for all nations, not just the convenience of the United States, Ted.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Understood.

Damnation being a permanent thing, I would rather disobey a presidential directive and move to capture if he wasn't an imminent threat to anyone's well being.

What those in power then do, is on them.

The SOCOM guys penetrating deep into Indian Country with a mission, were likely not worrying about the state of UBL's soul, nor was it their business to do so. I think it's highly unlikely he would have attempted to do so, anyway, but there was no particular reason, outside of mission parameters, for them to give him the chance to get to a weapon; they certainly didn't give anyone else a chance to do so, by all accounts so far. UBL had the same amount of time to have a "revelation" that many others have had when they were suddenly confronted with that final heartbeat. I had a friend in Texas, a good guy who was always first to lend a helping hand, who died between one breath and the next. Whoever we might be, our next breath is NEVER guaranteed. For those who commit or incite violence, the specter of instant death is always with them.

 

[IndyDave1776]

The SOCOM guys penetrating deep into Indian Country with a mission, were likely not worrying about the state of UBL's soul, nor was it their business to do so. I think it's highly unlikely he would have attempted to do so, anyway, but there was no particular reason, outside of mission parameters, for them to give him the chance to get to a weapon; they certainly didn't give anyone else a chance to do so, by all accounts so far. UBL had the same amount of time to have a "revelation" that many others have had when they were suddenly confronted with that final heartbeat. I had a friend in Texas, a good guy who was always first to lend a helping hand, who died between one breath and the next. Whoever we might be, our next breath is NEVER guaranteed. For those who commit or incite violence, the specter of instant death is always with them.

I would also add that the qualifications for such organizations as DEVGRU do not include theological training and from what I know I rather doubt that it is a prevailing concern among them for others or oftentimes for themselves.

 

[Ted]

The SOCOM guys penetrating deep into Indian Country with a mission, were likely not worrying about the state of UBL's soul, nor was it their business to do so. I think it's highly unlikely he would have attempted to do so, anyway, but there was no particular reason, outside of mission parameters, for them to give him the chance to get to a weapon; they certainly didn't give anyone else a chance to do so, by all accounts so far. UBL had the same amount of time to have a "revelation" that many others have had when they were suddenly confronted with that final heartbeat. I had a friend in Texas, a good guy who was always first to lend a helping hand, who died between one breath and the next. Whoever we might be, our next breath is NEVER guaranteed. For those who commit or incite violence, the specter of instant death is always with them.

I wasn't speaking of the soul of UBL. I was referring to their own souls.

 

[Ted]

Damnation? I'd say that the person that eliminates True Evil is FastTracking to heaven! Bin Laden, and evil men like him, killed thousands/millions of people and will/would continue to do so until stopped.....

That is not the way it works.

....Killing them isn't taking a life, it's saving lives. Many lives. Sociopaths like that cannot be reasoned with and will only stop being evil when they reach room temperature. I view this action as honoring and respecting the Life that the Creator gave us.

Likely, but consider this: If UBL wasn't an imminent threat, and was shot and killed anyway.......How is killing this man any different than those who similarly kill our own countryman?

 

[IndyDave1776]

That is not the way it works.



Likely, but consider this: If UBL wasn't an imminent threat, and was shot and killed anyway.......How is killing this man any different than those who similarly kill our own countryman?

It depends, as Bill would say, on your definition of 'is'. Seriously, just because he didn't have a weapon in hand at the moment, that doesn't change the fact that the man has been a killer as his primary vocation for decades and has dedicated the last ten or so years of his life to killing Americans. Lack of finger on the trigger at the moment doesn't change that.

 

[John Galt]

Likely, but consider this: If UBL wasn't an imminent threat, and was shot and killed anyway.......How is killing this man any different than those who similarly kill our own countryman?

I don't recall him coming out and renouncing his evil acts or trying to atone for them, therefore he was capable of and probably planning/assisting in more murder of innocent men, women and children. If one of our own countrymen did a similar act, they enjoy, for better or worse, the protection of the Constitution, but deserve the same fate none the less. It appears that our definitions of imminent threat are different. I view someone that has committed evil of this magnitude as a constant threat, finger on the trigger or not.

 

[CTS]

Personally I wouldn't be at all surprised if he's currently sitting in some secret detention facility right now. I doubt we'll ever know but we certainly wouldn't want to state publicly that he was alive.

Not "killing" him just wasn't a viable option, the amount of terrorism under the "free Osama" banner would have been substantially higher than with his execution.

 

[phylodog]

I didn't realize it was for those walking on this planet to decide whose souls were in peril or to declare someone damned. I've taken a life, who should I go talk with to learn if I'm going to hell? If I'm headed that way anyhow I might as well change my ways and have some fun before I get there.

 

[crispy]

The point for making this post was not really to determine if it was a kill mission. We all know it was. I guarandamntee you that the SEAL team was ordered to bring back his dead body... period.

It was also not to discuss the legality or morality of said kill mission. I couldn't care less if we were there to kill him rather than capture.

My point is that the Obama Administration LIED yet again. Making up some silly self-defense story when everyone knew otherwise. Only stupid people lie when their audience knows it is a lie.

 

[IndyDave1776]

The point for making this post was not really to determine if it was a kill mission. We all know it was. I guarandamntee you that the SEAL team was ordered to bring back his dead body... period.

It was also not to discuss the legality or morality of said kill mission. I couldn't care less if we were there to kill him rather than capture.

My point is that the Obama Administration LIED yet again. Making up some silly self-defense story when everyone knew otherwise. Only stupid people lie when their audience knows it is a lie.

Given that Obama's supporters appear to believe everything he says, what does that tell us?

 

[Ted]

It depends, as Bill would say, on your definition of 'is'. Seriously, just because he didn't have a weapon in hand at the moment, that doesn't change the fact that the man has been a killer as his primary vocation for decades and has dedicated the last ten or so years of his life to killing Americans. Lack of finger on the trigger at the moment doesn't change that.

I don't recall him coming out and renouncing his evil acts or trying to atone for them, therefore he was capable of and probably planning/assisting in more murder of innocent men, women and children. If one of our own countrymen did a similar act, they enjoy, for better or worse, the protection of the Constitution, but deserve the same fate none the less. It appears that our definitions of imminent threat are different. I view someone that has committed evil of this magnitude as a constant threat, finger on the trigger or not.

I don't disagree that the man was evil and was required the atone for his evil deeds. But if this would have been an IMPD cop who was executing a warrant, that shot and killed an unarmed man, there would be people here on INGO screaming of vigilante justice.

 

[Ted]

The point for making this post was not really to determine if it was a kill mission. We all know it was. I guarandamntee you that the SEAL team was ordered to bring back his dead body... period.

It was also not to discuss the legality or morality of said kill mission. I couldn't care less if we were there to kill him rather than capture.

My point is that the Obama Administration LIED yet again. Making up some silly self-defense story when everyone knew otherwise. Only stupid people lie when their audience knows it is a lie.

Obama lies. Ya think? Show me a politician who doesn't, and then I will listen.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I don't disagree that the man was evil and was required the atone for his evil deeds. But if this would have been an IMPD cop who was executing a warrant, that shot and killed an unarmed man, there would be people here on INGO screaming of vigilante justice.

I would say that there are some incompatible issues here:

1. IMPD generally does not deal with those responsible for the mass-murder of thousands of victims.

2. IMPD generally does not deal with people who are working to promote more of the same 24/7 and have the world-wide network to make it happen.

3. Police departments and military forces are two entirely different institution and should function appropriately, present trend toward demanding that our troops act like the PD notwithstanding.

4. Osama is an enemy combatant who openly declared war on the United States on behalf of his non-state terrorist organization, not a citizen as would be the case with those addressed by IMPD.

 

[Sailor]

Would you feel the same if he was killed with a drone strike?