Soldiers used to patrol school campuses in Killeen, Texas

[steveh_131]

I believe that you have an obligation to serve. That the price of freedom is service. And that only those who serve have paid their debt to society.

The price of freedom is slavery?

What is wrong with you?

 

[88GT]

LOL, arguing about a non-issue, and ignoring the obvious.

 

[steveh_131]

LOL, arguing about a non-issue, and ignoring the obvious.

So which is the non-issue and which is obvious?

 

[92ThoStro]

What's the problem? It's a GOVERNMENT school. Why not protect it with GOVERNMENT resources?

It's an armed guard. Isn't that what INGO is wanting?

It's called involuntary servitude. Look it up.

Mandatory Service

 

[rambone]

Why? Have issues with authority figures or just did not get on with your dad (if you had one)?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkWlN7ABVAs[/ame]

 

[rambone]

We had the draft from WW2 through Vietnam. One out of three males served in that period.

This was fought back during WW1. The courts held that the 13th amendment does not cover government required service.

Your ideology comes from the Wilson, Roosevelt, and Johnson school of statism.

Thus your local county could mandate that you have to spend so many hours a month doing work on the roads or picking up trash. Florida did so.

Like a chain gang?

There were over 100 cases in front of SCOTUS dealing with the 13th amendment. All were rejected and government service was validated.

Everything from mandatory human sterilization to American concentration camps has been approved by the Supreme Court. Compulsory government service belongs on that list of affronts to liberty as well.

I believe that you have an obligation to serve. That the price of freedom is service. And that only those who serve have paid their debt to society.

Sounds like the ultimate collectivist entitlement mindset to me.

What's the problem? It's a GOVERNMENT school. Why not protect it with GOVERNMENT resources?

It's an armed guard. Isn't that what INGO is wanting?

I didn't know INGO had an official opinion. I'm personally not in favor of more armed government agents; certainly not ones serving at the behest of the Federal government. I would like to see citizens' rights restored, not a police state. ymmv

 

[88GT]

I didn't know INGO had an official opinion. I'm personally not in favor of more armed government agents; certainly not ones serving at the behest of the Federal government. I would like to see citizens' rights restored, not a police state. ymmv

Who said anything about an official position?

All I'm saying is that it borders on ridiculous for someone to ***** about government protection in government schools. It's also supremely hypocritical.

 

[rambone]

All I'm saying is that it borders on ridiculous for someone to ***** about government protection in government schools. It's also supremely hypocritical.

I think it borders on ridiculous to say that anything the Feds have jammed their nose into has become military jurisdiction.

 

[RockofStrength]

So we could then tax you at 75% of of your labor to pay for said military?

So my options are:

A. Serve in the military for the good of the State.

or

B. Give up the majority of my independent income for the good of the State.

I choose option C. Screw the State, let the work of the people build the State as a secondary benefit to the fact that each person is able to make a better life for themselves. Which is the reason people join the military in the first place: to provide freedom for others to be able to live full lives.

 

[steveh_131]

All I'm saying is that it borders on ridiculous for someone to ***** about government protection in government schools. It's also supremely hypocritical.

Would you take issue with military patrols on government roads? What about government parks? Should we keep a platoon in the post office?

 

[Zoub]

So which is the non-issue and which is obvious?

The Amish

 

[Zoub]

Would you take issue with military patrols on government roads? What about government parks? Should we keep a platoon in the post office?

Why not arm all Postman as a sort of a second level threat response?

Those F'rs are everywhere. I personally have like 6 that deliver to my house. I kinda like this idea.

 

[Ted]

........The 2nd amendment requires that we have a well regulated militia. US code defines that militia as being all males between 17 and 45. Are all males "well regulated"?

As you need an education in such........

Used with permission of GunCite:

Well Regulated The Random House College Dictionary (1980) gives four definitions for the word "regulate," which were all in use during the Colonial period and one more definition dating from 1690 (Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd Edition, 1989). They are:

1) To control or direct by a rule, principle, method, etc. 2) To adjust to some standard or requirement as for amount, degree, etc.
3) To adjust so as to ensure accuracy of operation.
4) To put in good order.
​

[obsolete sense] b. Of troops: Properly disciplined. Obs. rare-1.

1690 Lond. Gaz. No. 2568/3 We hear likewise that the French are in a great Allarm in Dauphine and Bresse, not having at present 1500 Men of regulated Troops on that side.​

We can begin to deduce what well-regulated meant from Alexander Hamilton's words in Federalist Paper No. 29:

The project of disciplining all the militia of the United States is as futile as it would be injurious if it were capable of being carried into execution. A tolerable expertness in military movements is a business that requires time and practice. It is not a day, nor a week nor even a month, that will suffice for the attainment of it. To oblige the great body of the yeomanry and of the other classes of the citizens to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people and a serious public inconvenience and loss.
--- The Federalist Papers, No. 29.​

Hamilton indicates a well-regulated militia is a state of preparedness obtained after rigorous and persistent training. Note the use of 'disciplining' which indicates discipline could be synonymous with well-trained.
This quote from the Journals of the Continental Congress, 1774-1789 also conveys the meaning of well regulated:

Resolved , That this appointment be conferred on experienced and vigilant general officers, who are acquainted with whatever relates to the general economy, manoeuvres and discipline of a well regulated army.
--- Saturday, December 13, 1777.​

In the passage that follows, do you think the U.S. government was concerned because the Creek Indians' tribal regulations were superior to those of the Wabash or was it because they represented a better trained and disciplined fighting force?

That the strength of the Wabash Indians who were principally the object of the resolve of the 21st of July 1787, and the strength of the Creek Indians is very different. That the said Creeks are not only greatly superior in numbers but are more united, better regulated, and headed by a man whose talents appear to have fixed him in their confidence. That from the view of the object your Secretary has been able to take he conceives that the only effectual mode of acting against the said Creeks in case they should persist in their hostilities would be by making an invasion of their country with a powerful body of well regulated troops always ready to combat and able to defeat any combination of force the said Creeks could oppose and to destroy their towns and provisions.
--- Saturday, December 13, 1777.​

I am unacquainted with the extent of your works, and consequently ignorant of the number or men necessary to man them. If your present numbers should be insufficient for that purpose, I would then by all means advise your making up the deficiency out of the best regulated militia that can be got.
--- George Washington (The Writings of George Washington, pp. 503-4, (G.P. Putnam & Sons, pub.)(1889))​

The above quote is clearly not a request for a militia with the best set of regulations. (For brevity the entire passage is not shown and this quote should not be construed to imply Washington favored militias, in fact he thought little of them, as the full passage indicates.)

But Dr Sir I am Afraid it would blunt the keen edge they have at present which might be keept sharp for the Shawnese &c: I am convinced it would be Attended by considerable desertions. And perhaps raise a Spirit of Discontent not easily Queld amongst the best regulated troops, but much more so amongst men unused to the Yoak of Military Discipline.
--- Letter from Colonel William Fleming to Col. Adam Stephen, Oct 8, 1774, pp. 237-8. (Documentary History of Dunmore's War, 1774, Wisconsin historical society, pub. (1905))​

And finally, a late-17th century comparison between the behavior of a large collection of seahorses and well-regulated soldiers:

One of the Seamen that had formerly made a Greenland Voyage for Whale-Fishing, told us that in that country he had seen very great Troops of those Sea-Horses ranging upon Land, sometimes three or four hundred in a Troop: Their great desire, he says, is to roost themselves on Land in the Warm Sun; and Whilst they sleep, they apppoint one to stand Centinel, and watch a certain time; and when that time's expir'd, another takes his place of Watching, and the first Centinel goes to sleep, &c. observing the strict Discipline, as a Body of Well-regulated Troops
--- (Letters written from New-England, A. D. 1686. P. 47, John Dutton (1867))​

The quoted passages support the idea that a well-regulated militia was synonymous with one that was thoroughly trained and disciplined, and as a result, well-functioning. That description fits most closely with the "to put in good order" definition supplied by the Random House dictionary. The Oxford dictionary's definition also appears to fit if one considers discipline in a military context to include or imply well-trained.

What about the Amendment's text itself? Considering the adjective "well" and the context of the militia clause, which is more likely to ensure the security of a free state, a militia governed by numerous laws (or the proper amount of regulation [depending on the meaning of "well"] ) or a well-disciplined and trained militia? This brief textual analysis also suggests "to put in good order" is the correct interpretation of well regulated, signifying a well disciplined, trained, and functioning militia.
And finally, when regulated is used as an adjective, its meaning varies depending on the noun its modifying and of course the context. For example: well regulated liberty (properly controlled), regulated rifle (adjusted for accuracy), and regulated commerce (governed by regulations) all express a different meaning for regulated. This is by no means unusual, just as the word, bear, conveys a different meaning depending on the word it modifies: bearing arms, bearing fruit, or bearing gifts.

 

[Ted]

Not really. PCA is not a constitutional requirement and can be changed by congress at their will.

If we had mandatory service, as Israel and Switzerland have, it would be all of us patrolling and protecting. it would be citizens, in uniform, being teh police, the fire protection and the military. Not a bunch of professionals who are more concerned about pay and career than the public.

Perhaps, but PCA is currently the law of land. Until its changes, your argument is non seq.

I will also remind you that there are professional military personnel who are more concerned about pay and career, than that of the public as well.

 

[Ted]

Why? Have issues with authority figures or just did not get on with your dad (if you had one)?

Ad hom.

 

[Ted]

What's the problem? It's a GOVERNMENT school. Why not protect it with GOVERNMENT resources?

It's an armed guard. Isn't that what INGO is wanting?

This is a 10A issue.

 

[Ted]

It's called involuntary servitude. Look it up.

13A
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#cite_note-2

As Congress has to power to exclude the draft from such a definition, as well as the Supreme Court opinion in Selective Draft Law Cases, 245 U.S. 366 (1918), clearly stated:

......The power of Congress to compel military service as in the Selective Draft Law, clearly sustained by the original Constitution, is even more manifest under the Fourteenth Amendment, which, as frequently has been pointed out, broadened the national scope of the government by causing citizenship of the United States to be paramount and dominant, instead of being subordinate and derivative, thus operating generally upon the powers conferred by the Constitution.......

 

[Zoub]

Perhaps, but PCA is currently the law of land. Until its changes, your argument is non seq.

I will also remind you that there are professional military personnel who are more concerned about pay and career, than that of the public as well.

Yeah but if you tell them NO ONE passes without following procedure, they will even shoot up the car of a Colonel's wife. security requires both discipline and dedication.

Why do we afford better protection for a safe deposit box then our children or our borders?

We will probably have to use mandatory service just as a last chance attempt to save some of the mindless monsters now being raised by society.

 

[hornadylnl]

Yeah but if you tell them NO ONE passes without following procedure, they will even shoot up the car of a Colonel's wife. security requires both discipline and dedication.

Why do we afford better protection for a safe deposit box then our children or our borders?

We will probably have to use mandatory service just as a last chance attempt to save some of the mindless monsters now being raised by society.

Forcing them into government employment will fix that? All hail the state!

 

[Zoub]

I didn't know INGO had an official opinion.

Yes there is one. There are 5 of us who decide what it is on any given subject. I am one of those five.