Suicide by cop

[Indy_Guy_77]

The only reason for my position, is i would have liked to see the officer try and retreat a little faster until he had more help with him. he knew they were on their way and there was plenty of space behind him. Do i think him backing up would have changed the outcome? No, thats why i think its a good shoot but i would have liked to see him try at least. then again i wasnt there and dont know what led up to that or what other information the officer had so i will not sit here and armchair quarterback and criticize the cop for the decision he was forced to make.

the wife/gf was on the steps directly behind him. He was also in an unfamiliar environment - trying to "retreat" out of unfamiliar place with a woman sitting on the steps behind you all while keeping your eye on someone with a knife advancing upon your person...

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

Meh, self defense training isn't important all you need is competition training. Period end of story. Who cares how many bullets? Dead is dead. What's the difference if they kill him with 1 or 50?

Purple, right? Right?

 

[in625shooter]

So it is clear the officer requested him to stop and put the weapon down multiple times, and the man continued to approach him in an aggresive manner.

but my question is, did it require 5 shots to stop him? I understand that after 1 shot the man could have lunged, but he was headed toward the ground by shot 3.

Either way its a shame that someone is willing to take their life or anothers based on a string of bad luck and depression. Its a good thing he didnt have a gun, or it could have went another direction.

Most common training doctrine in LE now (has been for 20 plus years now) is shoot till the threat goes away. We (you) have the luxury of watching the video more than once and figure out the suspect fell at round 3. When you are pulling the trigger or driving your car remember it takes most a second to see what's going on and another second to react.

The only reason for my position, is i would have liked to see the officer try and retreat a little faster until he had more help with him. he knew they were on their way and there was plenty of space behind him. Do i think him backing up would have changed the outcome? No, thats why i think its a good shoot but i would have liked to see him try at least. then again i wasnt there and dont know what led up to that or what other information the officer had so i will not sit here and armchair quarterback and criticize the cop for the decision he was forced to make.

Retreating wasn't an option because a several reasons. 1. You have eyes on and you are able to see 100% what the suspect is doing, 2. you don't know what other items firearms etc) are in the house (you retreat and try to re enter what's he got then?) 3. You do all of that because you want to keep it from becoming a barricaded/hostage situation.

The Officer did exactly as he should have.

 

[Hornett]

2 things cone to mind.

The wife/girlfriend was worried that the perp would cut himself so she called the cops.
That was a bad idea because the police are not Ninjutsu experts trained in knife disarms.
Even if the wife/girlfriend had asked the officer to not shoot, I don't think there would have been a different outcome.
Of course the woman was agitated after the shooting, she didn't call the cops out to kill her boyfriend,
She wanted help calming him down.

The ONLY thing I would offer to armchair QB is that the officer should have waited for backup
I feel like the officer escalated the events by entering the house and searching for the suspect.
This was AFTER he made sure there was no back door or windows that suspect could get out of.
If the officer was afraid the suspect was going to cut himself, he should still have waited.
There were plenty of backup officers within seconds after the shooting.
If the suspect had cut himself, he had not had time to bleed out and die.

 

[Denny347]

2 things cone to mind.

The wife/girlfriend was worried that the perp would cut himself so she called the cops.
That was a bad idea because the police are not Ninjutsu experts trained in knife disarms.
Even if the wife/girlfriend had asked the officer to not shoot, I don't think there would have been a different outcome.
Of course the woman was agitated after the shooting, she didn't call the cops out to kill her boyfriend,
She wanted help calming him down.

The ONLY thing I would offer to armchair QB is that the officer should have waited for backup
I feel like the officer escalated the events by entering the house and searching for the suspect.
This was AFTER he made sure there was no back door or windows that suspect could get out of.
If the officer was afraid the suspect was going to cut himself, he should still have waited.
There were plenty of backup officers within seconds after the shooting.
If the suspect had cut himself, he had not had time to bleed out and die.

Yes, having back-up would have been safer for the officers involved, sadly, would not likely have changed the final outcome.

 

[LarryC]

I personally don't see any problem with the way the officer reacted during the entire episode.

1) He put the girl (possible hostage) in a safe position.
2) As to retreating, it sure could have increased the officers chance of being injured or killed, if he tripped or if the girl friend interfered in any way he had a person with a deadly weapon a few feet away. That person had already announced his intention to attack by continuing to advance.
3) We have the advantage of viewing the incident and making decisions in minutes - the officer had seconds.
4) If the person had not been stopped or disarmed and the officer killed or wounded it is quite possible the girl would have been next, then the guy probably would have killed himself (he certainly had suicide or homicide intent shown by his actions).
5) As far as the number of shots fired - all occurred in a very short time span, possibly two seconds. I certainly don't think any human being can assess the situation in that length of time and say OK, I have made the situation safe. I certainly can't - I probably would have emptied my firearm!

It is impossible for any armchair observer to know what thy would have done in a situation like this. It is real easy to make correct decisions when you know the outcome that has already happened. This officer has probably handled many previous calls like this without any problems. I have ridden with officers on domestic calls before - they are the most dangerous, unpredictable calls an officer can make. I for one am very happy the officer got out without injury. Sorry for the memories and sadness he will carry for the rest of his life. I am quite sure he has gone over his actions many times in his mind thinking "I could have" or I should of done this", when in reality his choices were made by the person he shot.

 

[phylodog]

This is no such thing as excessive deadly force

 

[X piller X]

As i said i understand the man could have still attacked after 3, and the officer did not have time to think of how many shots he was taking...

The ONLY reason i said that, was because i would rather this guy have lived, and gotten the help he needed rather than die.

 

[MiNDRiVE]

The guy never stopped and he gave him quite a bit of leeway. Anyone else hear at the end the woman start to get aggressive after he shot him?

Yeah I heard that but put yourself in her shoes. All she heard was gunshots and the officer's commands. She called them because she was worried and a life was taken. If I was her i would have been slightly aggressive as well. The loss of a loved one makes people do crazy things. The guy that lost his life didn't utter a single word so either he had mental problems or was under the influence. If i would have been in the officers position i would have shot as well. It was just an all around bad situation.

 

[phylodog]

i would rather this guy have lived, and gotten the help he needed rather than die.

I'd bet that officer feels the same way. Unfortunately the decision which led to that man's death was made by that man, not the officer.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

(Do we know that he died?)

 

[in625shooter]

As i said i understand the man could have still attacked after 3, and the officer did not have time to think of how many shots he was taking...

The ONLY reason i said that, was because i would rather this guy have lived, and gotten the help he needed rather than die.

In a perfect world sure however when the suspect chose to brandish a deadly weapon the Officer was well within his rights for deadly force. Could he have went to a tazer? Possibly but the fact the suspect had a deadly weapon the Police will always go one step above in their response not to mention time constraints did not warrant changing methods in mid encounter even if it could have been an option. As far as shooting there really is no "polite" way to use deadly force and only wounding him with a firearm is not an option.

 

[Jack Burton]

The video was dis-abled.

I just watched it fine.

 

[Jack Burton]

Could the officer have waited for backup? Yes

Should he have? No.

Like it or not, officers are trained to go to those who need help. It may be a little girl crying because she is lost, or a car stuck in a ditch. Or a person who the officer has reasonable belief he is going to hurt himself. To most officers that I have talked with it is a responsibility and a duty to attempt to save those who are on the edge. That is what drove the officer into the home while back up was on the way.

I believe he truly wanted to help this guy and believed that he could do so. Note well the pleading and calmness in the officer's voice and commands. He approached with all good intent. It was not his fault in the least that it went south.

I have seen plenty of videos where cops shot far too prematurely for the situation. This is not one of them.

 

[danielson]

This was a necessary shame. Hope the officer finds the strength to take it easy on himself and realize its not his fault, and he did his best.
As well, I hope the bystanders will find it in them to understand the situation, and the position the officer was placed in.

Of course they wont, they will ***** and moan and talk about how the pigs greased another wonderful person for nothing at all. Because people are inconsiderate and stupid.

Glad the officer did what he had to do.

 

[Jack Burton]

***** and moan

IF the officer had not gone into the home and IF the guy with the knife had harmed himself then you would have an equal amount of ***** and moaning... just saying different ***** and moaning from the existing kind.

 

[Denny347]

This is no such thing as excessive deadly force

Sure there is...super deadly force...

 

[Mark 1911]

If I put myself in the officer's shoes there is only one reasonable conclusion, that I would keep pulling the trigger until it was over. My main concern is, if I am ever in that type of situation is this - will I respond quickly enough to come out of it alive? I can only hope that the answer is yes.

 

[freekforge]

I say it was a good shoot. Had i been in his shoes i would have attempted to make verbal and visual contact and wait for backup to arrive before physically detaining him (looks like this is what he was going to try to do) unfortunately for all involved the subject made the decision to end his life before backup officers could arrive on scene. I have never been a cop but this is exactly how it was laid out in our criminal justice lessons. The subject displayed a willingness to end a life and therefore deadly force was used.

 

[danielson]

IF the officer had not gone into the home and IF the guy with the knife had harmed himself then you would have an equal amount of ***** and moaning... just saying different ***** and moaning from the existing kind.

For the same reason. People are inconsiderate, selfish and stupid.