Teaching the Tacti-Tards: Overhand vs. Slingshot

[Grelber]

Could have dq'd a shooter Sunday. First match, first time doing a reloads under some nervousness, hard a hard time remembering to take his finger out of the trigger guard while racking the slide. Have seen a couple guys let rounds loose doing it the other way.
I'm thinking which ever route you choose, getting trigger finger discipline is the first thing.

With my cz's the slide goes forward when I put the magazine in but I realize that not everyone can own a perfect gun. ( )

 

[cosermann]

..... if I am reloading from the slide locked open, I use the lever that is on the side of the gun ......

Impossible with a SIG P230/232, Kel-Tec P3AT, etc, and other such guns that do not have a slide stop/release lever.

Part of the reason for manipulating the slide is that it's a weapon independent technique.

 

[HoughMade]

 

[Bfish]

Overhand is more of a cure-all multi-use function.

I want an ingrained motion that can cure many ills as part of my training.

No bang? Tap, overhand rack, hope to get a bang.

Double feed? Drop/strip mag, overhand rack/s, insert mag, overhand rack, hope to get a bang.

Stovepipe? overhand rack, hope to get a bang.

This is also how I look at it.

 

[The Bubba Effect]

Another prime example of the "less tactical than thou" crowd.

 

[worddoer]

Overhand is more of a cure-all multi-use function.

I want an ingrained motion that can cure many ills as part of my training.

No bang? Tap, overhand rack, hope to get a bang.

Double feed? Drop/strip mag, overhand rack/s, insert mag, overhand rack, hope to get a bang.

Stovepipe? overhand rack, hope to get a bang.

^^^^^^^^^^

That right there.

He talks about doing research. He has apparently not done any research on the "Fight or Flight" response and how it effects both our mental and physical abilities. That is why all these new "tactical" methods are taught. These supposed "internet trainers" are trying to give real people the best chance possible to survive a real life gunfight. If all they cared about was teaching others how to shoot at a static range, then yes, any old method would work. Heck, you could use your butt checks and make that work too if your playing around on the range.

The overhand method, when done properly, still uses your index finger and thumb to pinch the slide. You are just using the rest of your hand in addition. So I don't know where he gets his info, but he is greatly mistaken. It seems to me he is just as qualified as the "internet trainers" he is accusing.

I find it interesting how there seems to be a growing subculture among gun enthusiast who eschew anything that is new and more effective. And some even get greatly offended if you even suggest that there could be another method. Did the old ways work...sure they did. But does that mean it's better??? Not always.

If you hate anything that is new and may be better than what you do, then buckle up baby. Cause the world is changing faster and faster. And if you hate new things, your life is really going to suck in the next couple of decades.

 

[Double T]

Yankee Marshall is an asshat. I turned it off. I use the overhand technique as you can also use this method to clear a stovepipe if you do it correctly. Overhand "clamp" on the rear portion of the slide also gives you more gripping surface on the slide, and engages a bit stronger forearm muscles.

9/10 times I've taught a "dainty" lady or child to shoot, overhand works.

YMMV, but Yankee Marshall is an asshat.

 

[craigkim]

Another prime example of the "less tactical than thou" crowd.

I had never seen this pointed out, but there certainly is such a crowd! It reminds me of the "I only hunt deer with a bow crowd".

I couldn't make it through much of this video, but what I took away was that he was trying to get shooters to keep their muzzle on target.... as in "down range". I didn't interpret that he meant for ANY tactical purpose, but instead to make sure you aren't pointing your handgun in an unsafe direction. I heard him saying, "figure out a way to rack your slide WITHOUT pointing it at the other shooters at the range."

I can't agree more if that is truly what he is saying. I have been to two different classes where I looked to my left and the shooter right next to me (both of them lefties) had their handgun pointed at my chest and were trying to rack the slide. In both cases, their left index was on the trigger. Picture them holding it with the slide parallel to their right forearm and pointed at their 3 oclock.

That may not be what he is saying, but I am not watching again to figure it out. Personally, I learned the overhand technique and it is efficient and effective for me on all of my handguns.

 

[cedartop]

Linked video is an unconvincing rant.

An example of such unconvincingness:

If the "pinch" grip/slingshot technique is "stronger," then why is the "clamshell" grip/overhand method preferred by those of weaker strength? Hint: The latter is a stronger combination. Duh.

If grip strength is a factor the youtuber wants to explore, he might be interested to know that people who study grip strength will tell you that grips which maintain more neutral wrist position (i.e. overhand) are stronger than grips with involve an articulated wrist (i.e. slingshot).

I think it's funny he invokes Jerry Miculek in support of the pinch/slingshot. Someone should tell his daughter Lena, since she's using the overhand method herself - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqEvpugYVds

Another example of Lena going, gasp, overhand! (0:07) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU5eeI9n05k

And on, and on. Video is chuck full of such holes.

I'm not arguing one way or the other. I'm just saying the video's argument is poor.

Dave Spaulding teaches the thumb forefinger pinch grip/slingshot method. That in and of itself I have no problem with, especially for lefties, where I lose him is in his reasoning. He goes on to rant about how he talked to one of his doctor friends and he said it is a stronger position for the hand. He then gives the example of grasping a credit card with both methods and clearly the pinch grip method is stronger. That is all fine and dandy, but a pistol slide is not a credit card. It is a wee bit thicker and that changes things. Now I don't really care which method you use, pick one that works for you and make it automatic. Just don't give me a BS reason for it.

 

[JeremiahJohnson]

I'm an overhand guy. My wrists don't like pinchy thingy way.

 

[cosermann]

Dave Spaulding teaches the thumb forefinger pinch grip/slingshot method. That in and of itself I have no problem with, especially for lefties, where I lose him is in his reasoning. He goes on to rant about how he talked to one of his doctor friends and he said it is a stronger position for the hand. He then gives the example of grasping a credit card with both methods and clearly the pinch grip method is stronger. That is all fine and dandy, but a pistol slide is not a credit card. It is a wee bit thicker and that changes things. . . ..

In mulling this over, another thing that I think is going on here, if we want to explore the strength angle (which, except for those folks who have trouble working the slide is kind of a non-issue), is that it's not all about the strength of *just* the grip only.

It seems to me that working the slide using the slingshot vs overhand method are two different ergonomic animals in total, and beyond simply the grip itself, invoke other, different muscle groups and such. The proof seems to be in the pudding when it comes to folks who have trouble working the slide. The overhand technique generally works better for them, right? Why? Well, there's a lot going on. The angles are different, more chest muscles are engaged, etc., and the whole package seems to work better for them - which to me seems to be a pretty good indication of the overall "strength" of the system.

 

[Excalibur]

I've always believed that it's a good thing to learn about other ways of doing things and seeing which works best for you unless it's something absolutely wrong or dangerous

 

[VERT]

Dave Spaulding teaches the thumb forefinger pinch grip/slingshot method. That in and of itself I have no problem with, especially for lefties, where I lose him is in his reasoning. He goes on to rant about how he talked to one of his doctor friends and he said it is a stronger position for the hand. He then gives the example of grasping a credit card with both methods and clearly the pinch grip method is stronger. That is all fine and dandy, but a pistol slide is not a credit card. It is a wee bit thicker and that changes things. Now I don't really care which method you use, pick one that works for you and make it automatic. Just don't give me a BS reason for it.

I haven't trained with Spalding but I have read his book and seen many videos. His method is to roll the gun sideways so that the wrist is straight. Like you said should work well for lefties. I have also found it works better for some people with weak hands. My wife injured her right hand (she is lefty) and can not close her right hand all the way. The Spaulding way works better, or she has to turn to her left and bring the gun in to her chest. I personally have trouble with the overhand method when handling pocket guns and small single stacks. In this instance I roll my wrist to the left and follow what Spaulding prescribes.

Interestingly enough the NRA textbook shows the same technique as Spaulding. There is a group that gets criticized by all the Tacti-Tards. I am beginning to believe that a lot of this stuff is creative marketing. I have no problem with any of the techniques so long as there is a valid reason. I myself right or wrong have my opinions.

I prefer the overhand method but I usually shoot 1911, Glock or Walther PPQ which are wider guns.

 

[chezuki]

Dave Spaulding teaches the thumb forefinger pinch grip/slingshot method. That in and of itself I have no problem with, especially for lefties, where I lose him is in his reasoning. He goes on to rant about how he talked to one of his doctor friends and he said it is a stronger position for the hand. He then gives the example of grasping a credit card with both methods and clearly the pinch grip method is stronger. That is all fine and dandy, but a pistol slide is not a credit card. It is a wee bit thicker and that changes things. Now I don't really care which method you use, pick one that works for you and make it automatic. Just don't give me a BS reason for it.

I can tell you for sure from my very limited BJJ experience, thumb and forefinger is NOTHING compared to fingers to palm "monkey grip". This is the approach I take to overhand racking of the slide as well.

 

[Double T]

Dave Spaulding teaches the thumb forefinger pinch grip/slingshot method. That in and of itself I have no problem with, especially for lefties, where I lose him is in his reasoning. He goes on to rant about how he talked to one of his doctor friends and he said it is a stronger position for the hand. He then gives the example of grasping a credit card with both methods and clearly the pinch grip method is stronger. That is all fine and dandy, but a pistol slide is not a credit card. It is a wee bit thicker and that changes things. Now I don't really care which method you use, pick one that works for you and make it automatic. Just don't give me a BS reason for it.

Yeah, I'm going to have to call BS on that one. Not only are MORE muscles activated in your forearm on the overhead, you also have more skin touching the gun (IE more friction). The more people talk about this dave spaulding, the more he makes me smack my head.

And I'm not trying to be more "tacticooler than thou", the reasoning and teaching methods leave much IMO to be desired.

Honestly, I'd listen to Travis Haley or Ron Avery. They actually seem to understand kinesiology, or at least study it in regards to effective body movements.

 

[Double T]

[video=youtube;hFIsPjEXt70]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFIsPjEXt70[/video]

 

[cedartop]

Yeah, I'm going to have to call BS on that one. Not only are MORE muscles activated in your forearm on the overhead, you also have more skin touching the gun (IE more friction). The more people talk about this dave spaulding, the more he makes me smack my head.

And I'm not trying to be more "tacticooler than thou", the reasoning and teaching methods leave much IMO to be desired.

Honestly, I'd listen to Travis Haley or Ron Avery. They actually seem to understand kinesiology, or at least study it in regards to effective body movements.

Dave Spaulding drives me nuts, and I don't agree with everything he teaches. He is however a very solid instructor and has a ton more relevant experience for our purposes than Travis Haley. (Unless you are training up to go overseas as a contractor.)

 

[VERT]

The Slingshot advocated by Spaulding and some others is not the same as in the video the OP linked. Spauldings background is sports kinesiology (sp?). Both that slingshot method and the overhand/saddle grip put plenty of meat including part of the palm on the slide of the gun. What is important is positioning the handgun so that the wrists are not in an awkward position. The wrist is not meant to bend at a 90 ankle and then pull or support weight while pinching stuff between the thumb and fingers. I know guys who do run their gun this way though. If you are a strong person you can get away with it. Little, fat wimpy guys like me not so much.

 

[Thegeek]

Overhand is more of a cure-all multi-use function.

I want an ingrained motion that can cure many ills as part of my training.

No bang? Tap, overhand rack, hope to get a bang.

Double feed? Drop/strip mag, overhand rack/s, insert mag, overhand rack, hope to get a bang.

Stovepipe? overhand rack, hope to get a bang.

I keep hearing this, but every time I've tried overhand to cure a misfire (snap-cap simulated for training) I end up blocking the cartridge/case I want to clear.

 

[Double T]

I keep hearing this, but every time I've tried overhand to cure a misfire (snap-cap simulated for training) I end up blocking the cartridge/case I want to clear.

What is the handgun in question? You shouldn't be blocking the ejection port with your overhand.