The best way to reduce gun violence is to end the Drug War

[IndyDave1776]

Wow, I never thought this day would come but I have to disagree with IndyDave.

Alcohol is legal and yet we still have a thriving home brew community. Legalization isn't going to eliminate home meth labs either unless you want to have legislation that prevents people from making their own meth.

I can hear people like rambone and his cadre of legalizers howling about that too. "You can't tell people what they can make in their own homes! Meth is legal! Why would you want to keep people from making a legal substance in their own homes!" "Who cares if it's extremely dangerous!" "You can buy extremely dangerous chemicals right now at Walmart!"

Just another consequence of "freedom" at any cost, or as I've said 1000 times now, freedom without responsibility - the libertarian motto.

You will likely always have a small group of people who for whatever reason want to do their own thing. My point with alcohol as an example is that those who still make their own are a very small percentage and do it as a hobby, either for the satisfaction of it or else making their just right product to their own satisfaction. The overwhelming majority will happily go to the liquor store, especially if the goal is inebriation for the sake of being inebriated.

Likewise, if drugs were legal, I would not be at all surprised to find a limited number of people gardening, using fertilizers tailored to the purpose, and pampering their plants in the belief that their personal weed is better than what you get at the store. I would expect the same to happen here, and would expect that the overwhelming majority of synthetic drugs would be manufactured under controlled conditions with there being far less incentive to 'homebrew' them. If nothing else, the number would be significantly reduced and we would have a golden opportunity for some constitutional pushback with one of the favorite bogeymen removed from the scene.

 

[steveh_131]

Wow, I never thought this day would come but I have to disagree with IndyDave.

Alcohol is legal and yet we still have a thriving home brew community. Legalization isn't going to eliminate home meth labs either unless you want to have legislation that prevents people from making their own meth.

I can hear people like rambone and his cadre of legalizers howling about that too. "You can't tell people what they can make in their own homes! Meth is legal! Why would you want to keep people from making a legal substance in their own homes!" "Who cares if it's extremely dangerous!" "You can buy extremely dangerous chemicals right now at Walmart!"

Just another consequence of "freedom" at any cost, or as I've said 1000 times now, freedom without responsibility - the libertarian motto.

This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read.

There are a lot of chemicals that are dangerous to produce in the home. How often do you hear about this happening? Where are all these 'homebrew' communities where people risk their lives and homes and safety to make a household cleaner, or allergy medication, or whatever?

These activities are bred by necessity, and the necessity is created by a government-sponsored black market.

 

[Destro]

The point he is making is that if such substances were legal, people would be buying them as the store just like cigarettes and not having explosions and contamination incidents trying it themselves.

so who makes sure the people buy them at the store? the .gov?

 

[Destro]

In the end, who cares if or how a person destroys their mind, body or soul? It is a choice they make and will make.

I do, most meth users don't work, many have neglected children, many commit other crimes such as theft, and the medical costs associated with some of these addicts are astronomical. I wish I could remember how much it was to treat a users who blow themselves up at Wishard, I feel like it was in the millions of $$$.

 

[jrlj]

true

I do, most meth users don't work, many have neglected children, many commit other crimes such as theft, and the medical costs associated with some of these addicts are astronomical. I wish I could remember how much it was to treat a users who blow themselves up at Wishard, I feel like it was in the millions of $$$.

Very true, Not many stoners are out robbing and raping, meth users are the worst

 

[Ashkelon]

after 20 years of working in the courts and criminal justice field it's become pretty widely accepted from trade journals I've read that approx. 10 percent of the general population will cook themselves and addict themselves to destruction.
It does not matter if its weed, blow, smack, meth, or booze that people uptake to their end.
The numbers remain the same. I'v read it and seen it in my daily practice.
Legalize it ALL and put the money in a treatment programs and regulatory programs instead of spending countless dollars on interdiction and super cool tactical gear like helicopters and M16s and let the 10 percent slowly kill themselves off.
The recreational users will remain just that...recreational.
The meth monkeys, crackheads and chickens will die off in their own time.
Continuing this endless cat and mouse game of lock up, release, lock up and release just strains the societal money pot and society's patience.
Let em use that s**t till they die. Those that can be saved will be. Those that can't..die. The war is Over and LOST

 

[IndyDave1776]

so who makes sure the people buy them at the store? the .gov?

Basic market forces. If a satisfactory product is available at an agreeable price, then few people are going to be motivated to fashion their own. You can grow your own vegetables and raise and slaughter your own meat, yet few people do so when they can simply go to the grocery store. You can brew your own beer, but Anheuser-Busch isn't feeling a pinch from it. People generally will not engage in a time and labor-intensive effort to make for themselves what can be procured inexpensively from a store. I understand that it is somewhat incompatible with your way of thinking, but people can get some things right without the application of coercive force. Sometimes an efficient job of doing something not necessarily healthy in a way that minimizes the threat to the rest of us is as good as we can get, as with this case. In the end, most of the problems which bleed over onto the rest of us are those introduced by reacting to the prohibition, not those intrinsic to the use of drugs.

If you allow circumstances conducive to what would be preferred circumstances, you don't have to make anyone do anything. They will make the choice on their own for reasons that serve their own interests.

 

[Destro]

Basic market forces. If a satisfactory product is available at an agreeable price, then few people are going to be motivated to fashion their own.

most meth addicts have no money

 

[steveh_131]

most meth addicts have no money

Let's say your average loser meth addict gets a hold of enough money to set up a meth lab in his basement.

Is he going to set up a meth lab? Or is he going to go to the nearest drug store and buy a few months worth of meth, if it was legally and inexpensively available?

If he was ambitious enough to invest the money in his own meth lab instead of his next fix, then he wouldn't be a broke meth-addict to begin with.

And what about your average low-life drug dealer. What would motivate him to set up a meth lab in his basement? He wouldn't be able to make any money, not if he's competing with large manufacturing processes.

So who is left? Who would do it?

 

[Destro]

Let's say your average loser meth addict gets a hold of enough money to set up a meth lab in his basement.

Is he going to set up a meth lab? Or is he going to go to the nearest drug store and buy a few months worth of meth, if it was legally and inexpensively available?

If he was ambitious enough to invest the money in his own meth lab instead of his next fix, then he wouldn't be a broke meth-addict to begin with.

And what about your average low-life drug dealer. What would motivate him to set up a meth lab in his basement? He wouldn't be able to make any money, not if he's competing with large manufacturing processes.

So who is left? Who would do it?

meth labs are set up with stuff you dig out of a dumpster - cost zero
most of the contents to make it are stolen - cost zero
many times it is made in abandoned homes - cost zero

 

[rambone]

meth labs are set up with stuff you dig out of a dumpster - cost zero
most of the contents to make it are stolen - cost zero
many times it is made in abandoned homes - cost zero

Charge them for stealing and/or trespassing. There are enough laws without the failed Drug War. (Cost $1,500,000,000,000)

 

[RockofStrength]

meth labs are set up with stuff you dig out of a dumpster - cost zero
most of the contents to make it are stolen - cost zero
many times it is made in abandoned homes - cost zero

Sounds easier to rob a gas station for cash, or steal a purse. Then go buy your crap.

 

[steveh_131]

Sounds easier to rob a gas station for cash, or steal a purse. Then go buy your crap.

Apparently these meth addicts are quite ambitious and frugal.

"A penny saved is a penny earned" is the new methamphetamine motto.

These addicts aren't going to steal, sell, and snort the proceeds. Oh, no. They are going to make wise investments. Plan for the future.

Then blow up the neighborhood.

 

[jgreiner]

Give a valid reason things would be worse than they are today.

Rather than shooting each other for turf and money, they would start coming after us, for turf and money.

 

[Liberty1911]

Sounds easier to rob a gas station for cash, or steal a purse. Then go buy your crap.

Not at all. My wife works in retail. They have probably a 10% theft margin for products. Corporate policy makes it difficult to confront thieves unless you catch them red handed because of law suit threats.

Even when you do, assuming they don't run or fight, the police have almost zero interest in dealing with shoplifters. Also, the "justice" system has almost zero interest in prosecuting property crimes.

Rob a gas station or an individual, and you will attract 1000% more attention from police and the "system".

Destro is correct, they'll continue to steal (shoplift) what they need since it's a low risk crime for dope heads.

 

[steveh_131]

Wow, that's a lot of shoplifting.

Alright, you convinced me. If they are shoplifting meth lab supplies, we should make meth labs illegal. Or better yet, we should make meth illegal. Then both the meth labs and the meth addicts will disappear.

Problem solved.

 

[AtTheMurph]

I do, most meth users don't work, many have neglected children, many commit other crimes such as theft, and the medical costs associated with some of these addicts are astronomical. I wish I could remember how much it was to treat a users who blow themselves up at Wishard, I feel like it was in the millions of $$$.

So what you are saying is that there are certain parts of society that are losers, degenerates, stoners, etc and you believe that by legislation you can cure them.

I would only direct you to the thousands upon thousands of laws that make all of these things illegal and then hold up the millions of prisoners our justice system incarcerates and the many millions more who break these laws as proof that you cannot legislate morality.

 

[hornadylnl]

Wow, that's a lot of shoplifting.

Alright, you convinced me. If they are shoplifting meth lab supplies, we should make meth labs illegal. Or better yet, we should make meth illegal. Then both the meth labs and the meth addicts will disappear.

Problem solved.

So what you are saying is that there are certain parts of society that are losers, degenerates, stoners, etc and you believe that by legislation you can cure them.

I would only direct you to the thousands upon thousands of laws that make all of these things illegal and then hold up the millions of prisoners our justice system incarcerates and the many millions more who break these laws as proof that you cannot legislate morality.

We're just 1 drug law away from a drug free utopia.

How is it that we can understand that gun control won't stop criminals from getting guns and believe that drug control will stop people from getting drugs?

 

[Liberty1911]

Wow, that's a lot of shoplifting.

Alright, you convinced me. If they are shoplifting meth lab supplies, we should make meth labs illegal. Or better yet, we should make meth illegal. Then both the meth labs and the meth addicts will disappear.

Problem solved.

The point, since you missed it, is that dope heads prefer the low risk crime of shoplifting, to the high risk crime of robbery.

About shoplifting - they absolutely shoplift pretty much everything required to make a meth lab, right down to the latex gloves.

However, according to you, all we have to do is legalize meth, then meth labs and addicts will disappear, and former meth addicts will all get jobs, pay for their recreational meth themselves and become productive members of society.

I'm not sure why Libertarians think that removing just one more law will somehow turn criminals and addicts into law abiding citizens.

On a side note, a suggestion for you, would be to post comments that further the discussion instead of the usual trolling of people you disagree with.

 

[eric001]

Fair warning and official notice: Longwinded Rant Below:

Several times in this thread I've seen the $$ figure for the war on drugs--well over a trillion dollars...impressive, but not even CLOSE to the whole story. How about some other statistics that might make a bigger dent in the arguments about perpetuating crime by gangs, lowlife drug-addicted scumbags, etc, etc?

For instance, how about this interesting little tidbit? "The money that states spend on prisons has risen at six times the rate of spending on higher education in the past 20 years."

Or maybe this one? "A college student costs the state $8,667 per year; a prisoner costs it $45,006 a year."

Of course, a significant part of the culture of drug crime has to be our prisons themselves. There have been several threads on here (no, I'm not going to bother looking them all up and posting links) about our legal system/prison system being swamped, being ineffective, not stopping criminals, etc, etc, etc. Consider this interesting little tidbit: today, over 50% of inmates are serving for drug convictions...and 80% of drug arrests are for possession.

Our prison system is at its biggest, most bloated state ever in the history of our country, and yet there is no end in sight to overcrowding in our penal system. How has this happened?? Consider that in 1980, the US had 150 out of every 100,000 citizens in jail... today that number is 760/100,000. The main difference??? The war on drugs, of course.

Source: America's War on Drugs Drives High Incarceration Rates - TIME

Our legal system treats convicts like a bass tournament treats fish--catch them, keep them for a while, turn them loose so they can be caught again. Only every step in the legal/penal system process costs the taxpayers money. Every. Single. Step.

And lastly, I think the previous posts have overlooked the psychological factors involved in the illegal drug culture and its related crime. Where are the highest concentrations of gangs?? In the rural farm communities? Not likely. Look in inner city environments and you'll find them. Look for where the gangs can be profitable, and you'll find them. Look for where young children who are forced to go to school until they're old enough to get out on their own grow up with relatives and older friends who make more by selling drugs in one week (one day??) than they will make in a month after going to college, getting a degree, finding a job (maybe??), and paying taxes. Where is the incentive?? As these kids see it, they could "waste" their lives being educated to make less money and live a boring life...or they could do what their friends and older siblings have done--get into a gang, make sh$tloads of money tax-free, get anything they want NOW, instead of ten, fifteen years down the road--and have RESPECT in their neighborhood because they have money, they "know" people, and so on.

What would this have to do with legalizing drugs?? Simple. Remove the Prohibition on drugs, and though it may not disappear, the vast majority of the black market--and the money from it--evaporates. Those young and impressionable kids would no longer see the gang lifestyle with all its trappings paid for by drug deals...they would see that lifestyle going through exactly what is happening to the pirates in Somalia--when the easy money disappears, so do the folks living off of it. All of a sudden, they have to find other things that are a LOT less glamorous to make ends meet.

The current generation of criminals will still be criminals looking for other crimes to sustain themselves--true. But what about the next generation of would-be criminals who no longer see crime as so lucrative, easy, and respectable?? And while I'm at it, what about the overflow of court cases and the overflowing prisons? They could each lose up to 50% of their problems...hhhhmmmmm.

If you really want to put a dent in the drug-crime culture, remove the criminal nature of the drugs. Remove the incentive to sustain that culture, and only THEN will that culture start to change. OR, we could continue the war on drugs as is, doing exactly what has NOT been working over and over, and somehow expect to get different results in the future. Because we all know how THAT will turn out.