The Cartridge Collectors Exchange

[BogWalker]

Some nice and unusual cartridges you have there! What is the 9x51mm SMAW cartridge used for?

It's fired from a barrel attached to SMAW rocket launchers. It's used to find the impact point of the rocket before firing it. Similar to the usage of the .50 spotter cartridge in conjunction with the 106mm recoiless rifle.

It uses an interesting high-low propulsion system. There is actually a .22 hornet case impressed in the base. This contains the charge which ignites the tracer and launches the projectile. The main cartridge is a necked up 7.62x51.

The mechanism on the aiming gun is primer actuated. The .22 hornet case backs out upon firing, and the rearward travel of this case is what cycles the action.

 

[indy1919a4]

I would love to own a boys anti-tank gun. I don't know if I could handle the recoil but it would be fun to try.

Recoil.. What recoil.. remember the training film... The Muzzle Brake, the buffer... Heck what recoil can live through that

Maybe this attachment can reduce your recoil and make the gun cheaper to shoot...

 

[Wolfhound]

Well, it sure looks like the Boys Rifle is rocking those gunners in the training film.

That attachment device is interesting. I am a little surprised they would use a .22 as I would think a standard .303 rifle would do the job just fine. I bet those .22 Enfields are valuable now.

 

[indy1919a4]

Well, it sure looks like the Boys Rifle is rocking those gunners in the training film.

That attachment device is interesting. I am a little surprised they would use a .22 as I would think a standard .303 rifle would do the job just fine. I bet those .22 Enfields are valuable now.

I think the reason it used the .22 enfields is because they used them in scaled down firing ranges because that would made the use of scaled down moving dummy tanks easier to use in training.. you know those mk III 22 trainers are really not that bad... (considering everything cool is pretty high)

Samco Enfield No.2 MK4 22 LR 25.2"

WWII British-Israeli Lee-Enfield No2 Trainer 22 LR : Bolt Action Rifles at GunBroker.com

Enfield MK3 Converted to .22 LR 22 : Bolt Action Rifles at GunBroker.com


The NO 4s that had been converted to 22 are scarcer and command higher prices

 

[TheBoss930]

View attachment 48199
Left to right: .577/450 Martini-Henry, .43 Spanish Reformado, 7.62x54r Egyptian practice with plastic bullet, 7.92x57mm Mauser Danish wood bulleted blank produced with a reused WWII German case, 9x51mm SMAW spotter cartridge

A few recent additions to the collection.

Some really cool cartridges big walker

 

[Wolfhound]

This is a World War 2 American 20mm training round stamped 1943. Next to a 50BMG for scale.

 

[AmmoManAaron]

This is a World War 2 American 20mm training round stamped 1943. Next to a 50BMG for scale.

That is a 20x110 Oerlikon. The dummy rounds are somewhat common, but live rounds are extremely rare. A friend of mine has a registered transferable full auto Oerlikon that he shoots regularly using ammo that he reloads, but he had to craft a custom armored mount for it because the guns are extremely dangerous to the operator (advanced primer ignition blowback with greased cartridges). These guns are so dangerous that even Navy gunners were issued body armor aprons late in WWII because the guns were blowing ruptured case fragments out the bottom of the gun and wounding/killing the operators. As a consequence of this, along with the crappy ammo situation, registered 20mm Oerlikon machineguns are one of the cheapest full autos available even though they are fairly uncommon as far as machineguns go. The only real positive is that load data is easy because it uses IMR 4831. My friend loads his with IMR 7383, an odd surplus propellant from pulled down .50 spotter-tracer rounds, that has a burn rate similar to IMR 4831. This powder is very cheap because of its "peaky" nature, but can be used successfully in a variety of rounds if you work up slowly and carefully using IMR 4831 data as a guide. When doing load development in say .30-06, as soon as the burn "cleans-up" you stop working up because much of any increase from that point will result in a very rapid peak pressure increase and a damaged/destroyed firearm. He uses this powder because it was dirt cheap, around $5/pound, and powder economy is kind of important when working with a round of this size! Collecting, shooting, and reloading for the various 20mm rounds is a nice niche to get into - lots of different rounds and information available. Owning, shooting, and reloading for some type of 20mm is definitely on my bucket list.

 

[Wolfhound]

Thanks for the information. I had no idea that was an Oerlikon round. I've seen them in some movies but its not a gun that I am familiar with. Just watched some videos on youtube and they are impressive. Definitely would not turn down an opportunity to fire one (with proper precautions).

 

[Wolfhound]

This is an 8x58R Danish Krag stamped 1928. Next to a 7.62x39mm for scale.

 

[BogWalker]

^Nice find. Never seen one of those before.

Just picked up 200 rounds of 6.5x53.5r Dutch at auction. Sorting through it now, but it's going to take a while to clean up. Very grimy lot of ammunition. Some for collecting, some for shooting, very few I would rate as components grade so that's a pleasant surprise.

I'm noticing several cartridges that have the headstamp lined through. Anyone have any idea why?

 

[Wolfhound]

If there is a triangle stamp it possibly means to disregard the headstamp markings as the case was loaded later than the date stamped and to refer to the box for information. Not sure about lining through the actual headstamp though.

Probably a good one for Aaron.

Congrats on a good score. That stuff is hard to find.

 

[BogWalker]

Found a nice method to clean up a cartridge without harming the patina.

I rub the grime off with a piece of scrap denim, use a toothpick to scrape junk out of the primer annulus and around the rim, and then I give it a final rub with a lighter piece of fabric from an old button down shirt to polish it up.

Works really well.

 

[AmmoManAaron]

Found a nice method to clean up a cartridge without harming the patina.

I rub the grime off with a piece of scrap denim, use a toothpick to scrape junk out of the primer annulus and around the rim, and then I give it a final rub with a lighter piece of fabric from an old button down shirt to polish it up.

Works really well.

That's a good process BogWalker. Along the same lines, my friend Gary at ColCart told me when I first started collecting that carrying the round in the pocket of your denim jeans for a few days would help in a similar fashion. No doubt that your process is more thorough and is definitely the approach I would take on a rare round.

 

[AmmoManAaron]

If there is a triangle stamp it possibly means to disregard the headstamp markings as the case was loaded later than the date stamped and to refer to the box for information. Not sure about lining through the actual headstamp though.

Probably a good one for Aaron.

Congrats on a good score. That stuff is hard to find.

I agree with WolfHound on the case probably being loaded/reloaded at a later date than the headstamp otherwise indicates. Most commonly, I've seen a circle used on 6.5 Dutch for this purpose, but I've seen both circles and triangles used on other cartridges such as the 8x58R and 9mm Luger. I've never seen the headstamp completely lined through, so that is a new one to me. In the same vein, I have seen the headstamp machined out on cases that were reformed into another caliber and also on surplus ammo where there was a desire to obscure the origin of the ammo (in both instances, they end up looking like original Carcano case heads).

 

[BogWalker]

I've read that the triangle was meant for loaded at a later date than marked, and that the circle marked a sub-standard casing and was used on blanks. Any confirmation on that one, or have you observed the circle on ball ammo as well?

I think reloaded sounds like the best bet. I know the Dutch did a lot of reloading of ammunition.

I also found two cases that look like the headstamp was overstamped with new information. Very odd, but I can't find a lot of information since the IAA forum is down right now.


Is the ColCart website just down temporarily, or has he taken it off line? I've gotten a page not found error for several weeks now.

 

[BogWalker]

Overstamp
Some have and x or + on the headstamp, usually looks more like a +. Not sure what it means.
Lined through example

Complicated heastamp. 40 A 40 3 29 3. Maybe an overstamp that lined up well?
Triangle and + sign. The + appears to be overstamped over the FN marking.
Just an unknown headstamp. Do 37 (31?) A



http://www.municion.org/6_5x54r/6_5x54r.htm This Spanish language site has a good number of examples of the cartridge. Some with multiple markings are stated as reloaded, others have the multiple marking as listing the year of production of the case, the contractor for the brass, the lot of the powder, and the year the cartridge was loaded. This is a complicated cartridge to decipher the headstamp on.

 

[AmmoManAaron]

I've read that the triangle was meant for loaded at a later date than marked, and that the circle marked a sub-standard casing and was used on blanks. Any confirmation on that one, or have you observed the circle on ball ammo as well?

I think reloaded sounds like the best bet. I know the Dutch did a lot of reloading of ammunition.

I also found two cases that look like the headstamp was overstamped with new information. Very odd, but I can't find a lot of information since the IAA forum is down right now.


Is the ColCart website just down temporarily, or has he taken it off line? I've gotten a page not found error for several weeks now.

I'll have to look, don't trust my memory at the moment. Different symbols with different meanings would seem the most logical, rather than them all meaning simply reloaded. I have not found any official Dutch documents stating what any of the various added symbols mean, but that would be awesome if someone could discover that info. Dutch headstamps are probably the most complicated out there and not much info is available, relatively speaking (think British or German). The source of brass, loader, and year can usually be deciphered, but not always. Your pictures have definitely inspired me to get back to work researching the 6.5 Dutch, both your specimens and my own.

Didn't know the ColCart website was down, but it is and I have no idea why. I will attempt to find out.

View attachment 48449
Overstamp
Some have and x or + on the headstamp, usually looks more like a +. Not sure what it means.
Lined through example
View attachment 48450
Complicated heastamp. 40 A 40 3 29 3. Maybe an overstamp that lined up well?
Triangle and + sign. The + appears to be overstamped over the FN marking.
Just an unknown headstamp. Do 37 (31?) A



6.5x54R Mannlicher - MUNICION.ORG This Spanish language site has a good number of examples of the cartridge. Some with multiple markings are stated as reloaded, others have the multiple marking as listing the year of production of the case, the contractor for the brass, the lot of the powder, and the year the cartridge was loaded. This is a complicated cartridge to decipher the headstamp on.

Very good headstamp pictures and very good questions. I agree with your observations, but don't have any concrete information on the meaning of the added symbols...or that headstamp, which I have seen before, but is not common and I have not been able to identify yet...I'm looking forward to doing more research when I have some free time.

I've used that Spanish language site once or twice, found info on there that I couldn't find anywhere else regarding some odd, relatively new extremely small bore shotgun cartridges and loadings.

 

[AmmoManAaron]

The ColCart Inc. site is back up and running for anyone who is curious. I have no idea why it was down.

Home

 

[BogWalker]

Got a mystery.

Headstamp of VI46 4 8 HA which suggests it is a 6.5x55 Swede. Except it's not. When compared to a 6.5 Swede from a known box the cartridge is shorter at the neck, shorter in overall length, and uses a bullet of larger diameter. They are identical up to the top of the shoulder.

Almost looks like it's had the neck blown out for .308 bullets. It has a copper jacketed spitzer bullet with a visible cannelure. Is this a known wildcat?

Sorry, no pictures at the moment.

 

[Wolfhound]

Got a mystery.

Headstamp of VI46 4 8 HA which suggests it is a 6.5x55 Swede. Except it's not. When compared to a 6.5 Swede from a known box the cartridge is shorter at the neck, shorter in overall length, and uses a bullet of larger diameter. They are identical up to the top of the shoulder.

Almost looks like it's had the neck blown out for .308 bullets. It has a copper jacketed spitzer bullet with a visible cannelure. Is this a known wildcat?

Sorry, no pictures at the moment.

I don't know much about wildcat cartridges and my internet search turned up nothing.

A picture would probably really help. I know there are several INGO members on here that work with wildcats and have much knowledge on the subject.