The history of deer hunting firearms in Indiana

[Mark 1911]

You've been hit twice...by what? Bird shot from a near-by hunter that fired and pellets landed on you? I've been under a rain of pellets several times, but don't count that as being "hit".

Amazing, you've had pellets land on you in a tree, and so that MUST be what I was talking about? Why ask if you already know what happened to me?

Indiana hunters are as safe as those anywhere else, including other states that are flat and have houses here n' there, out in the country.

I also beleive the vast majority of Indiana hunters are as safe as anywhere else. I also believe we are the best deer hunters in North America. It's a lot harder to kill a deer from 20 yards than from 400. But we also have more hunters per square mile than in other areas of the country with more wide open terrain. That doesn't leave much room for "slob hunters" as you appropriately call them. Unfortunately, not all of the hunters are good hunters. Hunt DNR property for any length of time and you will understand where I'm coming from.

MOST People make sure that when they shoot, their backdrop is safe. Unfortunately, some careless people do not.

FIFY

It's not rocket science and I'm not going to question the "hunter" status of others while limiting myself and my fellow Hoosiers.

But you would question the field experiences of other Hoosier hunters that you don't know and have never met simply because you have not had a similar experience? Kirk Freeman raised a question, "why no weapons restrictions on squirrel and coyote, while there are weapons restrictions on deer". I pointed out one possible reason that politicians might have.

The simple fact is that IF centerfire rifles were allowed in Indiana, the number of accidents would not rise appreciably, if at all.

I prefer the argument that deer live do not spend much time in open spaces to the "slob hunters" argument.

I hope they do make high power rifles legal for deer. I just don't think they will. Whether its good reasoning on the part of law makers or not, I was just offering a possible explanation for their reasoning. Not agreeing with it.

 

[snapping turtle]

I have been hunting deer every year for 38 years with my father. ( I guess 37 season technically since firearms is not in yet.) I changed up weapons often in the quest for a longer shot chance.

I started with a single shot Youth 20 gauge with punpkin balls slugs in a mod choke bead sighted shotgun. Max effective range for me mabye 50 yards as a kid.

I moved up to a 12 guage pump with 18 inch smooth bore deer barrel (Now in use for home defense much better at that than shooting slugs at deer.) I could put 3 round in 6 iinches at 60-75 yards. It shot slugs like crap. then the Brenikie rifled slugs came out and it at least grouped better.

I bough my first deer handgun at 21 a tc contender in 44 mag. 75 yard shots were about it from the 10 inch barrel open sights.

I got a 35 rem contender barrel 2 inches at 125 yards with the scope were easy but it fell off sharply after that.

I went to 357 max and 2 inches at 150 was possible. In A 14 inch barrel I added the bypod and a rifle sling to carry the pistol. At that time I was younger and dumber and often carried the pistol for long range and the open sighted slug gun for close stuff or moving shots. I also got a 7-30 waters barrel maybe the best for range in the contender package. Max range 200 with handloads and perfect setup.

I then saw guys putting 3 shots in 6 inches at 175-200 yards with sabot shotgun and in-line blackpowder. I got a barrel fully rifled and scoped it up and then I did not have to carry both the shotgun and pistol just the shotgun. I used this setup for years....Max yardage for me was 175 yards. This setup was easier to shoot in normal hunting than the pistol. It was big, heavy hurt me when i shot it.

Then the PCR and I bought a 20 inch marlin. No more sore shoulder. Less range and not as much pure knockdown power than the sluggun but much easier to carry and shoot. Plus you hunt deer with rifles everywhere else. I love it. But I had to get something a little better.

So i go a new one in stainless and laminate with 16 inch barrel and scout scope setup. I think it is perfect for me as I prefer to still hunt but I am is a stand lots also. I gave dad the 20 inch marlin. This is my current and most likely the last of my purchase for indiana deer.......Sure it is........

This whole time dad hunted with his auto 5 that mom bought him when they got married. All along that smooth bore shotgun with open sights was a 3 inch at 80-100 yard gun with just old winchester slugs much better than my rem 870 with smooth bore.. Last year he shot his buck at 135 yards with the 44 mag rifle. The first deer he said he could not have shot with the browning and pumpkin ball slugs.

Lets add it up.

Pump 870 300 dollars in the early 1980's.
Tc contender and 44 mag 10 inch 350.
135 for 35 rem 14 inch barrel.
75 for by pod,
150 for 4 power pistol scope.
40 for sling
15 for swivels.
137 for 357 max,
150 for 7-30 water 14 inch barrel.
115 for fully rifled 870 barrel,
150 in sabot shells at least to find the right one.
150 for redfield 1-4 power shotgun scope.
375 for marlin 1894 used with crappy scope. (Changed to the redfield.)
585 for the marlin limited 1894 44 mag.
300 for the scout scope
75 for the scout mount.

For me That is 3102 dollars and then remember the state sales tax so they made 182 dollars if you figure at 5.5 % sales tax. All in the quest to gain yardage. Longest shot was 150 yards with the pistol in 35 rem in 1986. Average kill distance 50 yards.

If you split up equipment costs over 37 years it is 88 dollars and change a year. Not bad over all. I did not include tree stands, hotel nights, scents, spray's , camo, filson, carhart, and boots to name just a few things.

Dad free shotgun from mom and hand me down marlin 44 mag. His cost 0. His longest shot 135 yards. Average shot distance over XX years of hunting 35 yards. Until the second year of the PCR rifle dad had always just a shotgun to hunt deer as in all the states we lived it was the main legal weapon. Back in the day we never sot does. I don't ever remember him every shooting a doe. He filled a doe tag one year when he shot a botton buck. He then regreated it because the buck could have grown up. He has not purchased a doe tag since.

I think lots of people chase the rules to get that last possible yardage. I know it did as they let the pistol come I went with it. Slugs with sabots been there, PCR's done that and spent lots of money.

Is that not what they want me to do.

Of course they will change the rules to make me buy something new. I think the doe only new firearms season is where we see some additions. 30-30 7-30 waters, 35 rem, and 45-70.

 

[BigMoose]

The cartridge restrictions in this state for Deer are a damn joke.

The current list is a screwball list of expensive wildcats and lever gun cartridges...

Only one, the .458 SOCOM is made for a semi auto platform. And don't get me going on it's extreme cost.

The exclusion of 45-70 and 30-30 makes no sense with the distances achieved by the Wildcat cartridges. Both don't even perform a well as some of the Wildcats. And these cartridges are in millions of guns.

Okay, so even then. Let's move onto the spitzer bullet long range cartridges. The ones that scare everyone for safety's sake. You know the ones, 30-06, 308/7.62x51, 270 win, 243 win, and 7mm rem magnum. (or anything similar) In most states, you wouldn't consider deer hunting with out one of these cartridges.

There are some cartridges I DON'T ever want to see.
300win mag and up..... just too damn much. And you don't keep these banned you know that there will be some idiot who buys the 50BMG from gander mountain and..... well. We don't need exploding deer....

Underpowered stuff. 223 etc.... goes without sayin

Ohh well, I see another trip to Texas soon for hog hunting. M14 with a full 20 round mag!

 

[foszoe]

In WV we had hunter ed in school. Do they do that here? A skilled marksman looks beyond the shot first at the backdrop. A skilled hunter takes that a step further to ensure the shot is humane. If one does both of these then the number of accidents certainly wont increase.

 

[Broom_jm]

I'm not sure that the DNR benefits much from the sale of firearms, even from taxes, but they DO get funds when more hunters get out there and hunt. It may well be that they are opening up the regulations to make hunting attractive to more people, and in particular, to women and youths. The PCR regs have done that, if nothing else.

If we, as hunters, start to debate which rounds are "too powerful", that will turn into an endless argument. The 300WM case length is basically the same as the 30-'06 and the effective range is not as much greater as you might think...probably less than 100 yards difference between them, in terms of point-blank range. The truth is that the 300 Win Mag is STILL not "dangerous"...as long as the hunter is safe!

@foszoe -- Yes, Indiana has hunter ed in school. My daughter took the class and passed the test for it. She had already killed 2 deer by then under Indiana's Apprentice Hunter program. Knowledge and caution combine to make safe Indiana hunters...not case lengths and calibers!

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I'm not sure that the DNR benefits much from the sale of firearms, even from taxes,

They do.

DNR spoke on this at the last ISRPA Board of Directors meeting in Danville last weekend. They received 9 million in P-R taxes last year.

 

[Broom_jm]

They do.

DNR spoke on this at the last ISRPA Board of Directors meeting in Danville last weekend. They received 9 million in P-R taxes last year.

Well, that is certainly some incentive, huh? I don't know how much of that would be generated by the sale of new firearms and ammunition, but it's probably a pretty fair amount.

 

[buford t justice]

comparing varmint or coyote hunting with a 25/06 to deer hunting with the same caliber is a bit on the apples vs oranges.
How many times have you gone coyote hunting and ran into other coyote hunters? "for me never".
and how many times have you gone deer hunting and when the sun comes up you see orange all around you

 

[buford t justice]

I honestly think human nature is why most hoosiers want all "high powered" rifles legalized .
You want them because you were told you couldn"t have them.
Kinda like me and beer before I turned 21

 

[Broom_jm]

I honestly think human nature is why most hoosiers want all "high powered" rifles legalized .
You want them because you were told you couldn"t have them.
Kinda like me and beer before I turned 21

This is true, but is it not also human nature to keep things the way they are, unless there is an obvious need for change? You don't need a new pair of shoes until the soles are falling apart on the old ones?

 

[45fan]

The most confusing part of this entire area of discussion for me is, the high power rifle cartridges that are not yet legal in rifles are completely legal in pistol platforms in this state for deer hunting.
In my mind, safety isnt any better with limiting these to pistols. The Range isnt significantly reduced in the shorter barrel. Safety isnt increased, if anything decreased with the handgun, as it would be easier to unintentionally shoot ones self with a handgun as one example.
While in my years of hunting deer in this state I have never taken a deer past 50 yards, well within range for even the most modest handgun options, there are at least a few instances where a bit more range might have made a difference in harvesting a deer. Even when hunting with a .44 Mag handgun, I set myself in a position that takes in consideration the most likely route of approach for deer, and whatever(whoever) might be beyond.
If the ruels ever do change, I am sure I would on occasion use my 30-06 or .308 Win, but more than likely, my go to deer gun will still be my .44 lever gun, or possibly my SKS for the majority of the time because they are lighter, and still do the job in 99% of the situations I will encounter.

 

[Fordtough25]

The landscape down here is just fine for high power rifles, I would love to use my 30-06. It's legal 15 minutes down the road and across the river in kentucky. But for now I use my pistol caliber guns, fun and light on recoil. I would love ot use my 30-30 as well, and I think that may happen one of these days. Hope so anyways.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I honestly think human nature is why most hoosiers want all "high powered" rifles legalized .
You want them because you were told you couldn"t have them.
Kinda like me and beer before I turned 21

"High powered" rifles are legalized for all kinds of game, including deer with predation permits. Or, you can shoot the cartridge in a handgun.

The regs were instituted to handicap hunters. It is time to lift that handicap.

The landscape down here is just fine for high power rifles,

It is not about "landscape". Please do not buy into that chaff/red herring.

 

[Bill B]

Heck, I'm still trying to figure out why no buckshot.
Michigan has multiple regulations for hunting with rifles. If you are in "zone 3" you may not use a center-fire rifle for hunting, end of statement. None of this weird, it's ok for squirrel (or whatever) but not deer, stuff.
The aforementioned "sea of orange" is why I hunt on private property in Michigan, I know everyone that is there, where they are, and the direction they are shooting.

 

[BigMoose]

or possibly my SKS for the majority of the time because they are lighter, and still do the job in 99% of the situations I will encounter.

I am not crazy about the idea of the 7.62x39 as a hunting cartridge... Many of the rifles that fire it are not the most terribly accurate things known to man. Even if things like 308 and 30-06 are legalized for deer. I would still want 7.62x39 banned.

 

[GaDawg]

I have lived here for 3 years and still can't believe the big stink in the northern states in regards to deer hunting. Crazy that u can't use rifles. Insane the amount of money it costs in tags. It is cheaper to by out of state tags in some states than what Indiana charges residents. I think its a big sham for mo money. The fact u have to buy all these different tags is Redonkulous. I know people that hunt with muzzleloaders that r able to take deer at 300yrds.

 

[ilikeguns]

I guess my problem is that I do not have the faith in hunters that a lot of you seem to have once gun season comes in. Maybe there are just an abnormally large number of idiots in my area. I know that the gun is not the danger it is who is behind the gun. That is what worries me!! Every single year I see multiple people doing stupid things. Every year. I once walked out of the woods hearing several muzzle loader shots to see a guy sighting in his gun that he said hadn't been out of the closet since last year. He had a piece of cardboard sitting in a bush at chest height in the edge of the woods shooting into the woods! As I was explaining to him that I could have been right behind that bush a deer ran across the road and he turned,dropped to a knee,and fired ACROSS the road at this running deer with a gun he had just said wasn't hitting where it should. I have watched people multiple times unload 5 rounds at running deer 200yds across a field with their shotgun. I always catch multiple trespassers on the little bit of private ground I have access to, but only in gun season. The fact is that there are a whole lot of people that want to shoot a deer who are not HUNTERS. They do nothing to prepare and have very little idea what they are doing. I just can't get around to thinking that HI-POs are a good idea no matter how many statistics say it is okay. The squirrel/varmint/predator argument means nothing to me because the number of people out doing that are minuscule compared to deer firearms season. Not saying my opinion is the only right one but it is the right one for me.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

The Pennsylvania study shows that shotguns with slugs are more dangerous than centerfire rifles.

If you should ban something for potential for disaster, then you should ban shotgun slugs.

 

[ilikeguns]

Don't care about studies. The "numbers" would evidently show most people must think Obamas doing a fine job, since he got re-elected. I don't agree with that either........... Can't ban what we don't have. Just don't see the need to introduce more than we already have.

 

[Broom_jm]

Just don't see the need to introduce more than we already have.

In America, our liberties have never been predicated on "need". It is this kind of thinking that erodes freedoms. There is language to this end in the Bill of Rights, specifically the 9th Amendment, which states:

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people"

In other words, our rights are not based upon whether or not we "need" something. They are not based upon whether or not they are spelled out, in so many words. As long as what you do does not infringe upon the rights and freedoms of others...it is your right to do so.

Indiana's deer-hunting regulations and restrictions began as a means of protecting a very small deer herd. As I explained in the OP, it was not so much about safety as it was conservation. Now that the deer herd is well-established (understatement) and greater harvest is indicated, the DNR is only perpetuating a myth of safety, by choosing to maintain, and slowly expand, the absurd regulations we have today.

Frankly, what we "need" today, in order to help keep our deer population under control, is more hunters, more access and more effective deer hunting tools. That's why the PCR reg's were adopted, isn't it? Wasn't the idea to make it "easier" to get more folks hunting, without the punishing recoil of slug guns?

If there isn't a reason to disallow certain freedoms, it has always been the American way to allow them. Mossberg is now building a rifle called the MVP. It's a bolt-action, chambered in 223, that accepts many types of AR magazines. You can take the magazine out of your AR-15, stick it in the bottom of this rifle, and use it as a bolt-action. This is a minor revolution in firearm design. We certainly didn't "need" it, but we are nonetheless free to purchase one and shoot ANYTHING in Indiana with it...except a deer. Cuz that would be "unsafe"? Times change but that does not mean we forfeit freedoms, although politicians are more than happy to let unwitting citizens go right on abandoning their freedoms, telling themselves they don't "need" them.

It is my opinion that there is no factual reason to disallow conventional center-fire rifles for deer hunting in Indiana, and they should therefore be allowed. The claims that such rifles would compromise safety have not been proven, despite the dozens of states where such rifles are used by literally millions of people. The perpetuation of the Indiana laws are nothing more than intractability, even in the face of a quantifiable shift in "need".