The US military needs something more accurate, lethal and reliable than the M4

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  • Should the US military keep the M4 or is time for a new rifle?


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    Blackhawk2001

    Grandmaster
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    Jun 20, 2010
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    I didn't bother to go back and read all the posts, and I've probably commented before this, but reading the thread title made this come to mind:

    Whether or not we need a new combat rifle depends upon what war(s) we intend to fight next. We've been through this issue multiple times in the last century. .30cal rifles have been the standard for battle rifles because Europe, with it's large open areas, was the primary battlefront and .30cal was needed for the distances involved. The more popular weapons for jungle fighting in WWII were the lighter .30 carbine and the various 9mm and .45acp submachine guns, since they were effective over the generally shorter engagement distances in jungle operations and weren't as heavy or as unwieldy as a standard battle rifle (M-1 Garand or Enfield) and could provide a higher rate of fire (useful when your target is obscured by concealment). During the Korean War, those popular M-1 carbines were discovered to not provide enough knockdown power at the medium-to-far engagement ranges in Korea, although they met the need for increased rates-of-fire that proved necessary to defeat the human wave attacks used by our enemies in place of assault weapons. The M-14 was the first attempt to "standardize" around a common weapons system by mating a standard battle rifle cartridge platform with the ability to maintain higher rates of fire (20 rounds/mag vs 8 rounds/clip) while maintaining the reliability of the then-current battle rifle, the M-1 Garand.

    Then came VietNam, with its jungle-fighting again, and the perceived need for full-automatic firing capability, and the M-1 seemed to be too unwieldy and too heavy again, so M-1 Carbines and M-3 Grease Guns and various other submachine guns began to make their way back into the inventory and eventually, the M16, a weapon developed as a survival weapon for the Strategic Air Command, was adopted as the new battle rifle. It worked fairly well in the short-ranged jungle environment again, but suffered from an inability to provide sure kills at ranges over about 500 meters, which lead our Recon Platoon Sergeant to attempt to trade the issue M-16s of our CAV recon platoon for the KATUSA guards' M-14s, when I was in Korea.

    In Europe, the M-16's shorter range was offset by the fact that the AK had about the same range/accuracy, so infantry engagement, which tactics would revolve around anti-tank weaponry, was largely a wash in the battle rifle department.

    Other engagements by the US in the latter half of the 20th Century again featured either relatively short engagement ranges (urban or jungle fighting) or where the battle rifle wasn't the primary weapon being used. It wasn't until we went into Afghanistan, IMO, that the increased engagement ranges involved in fighting from ridge-top to valley floor, or ridge-top to ridge-top again pointed up the deficiencies of the weapon system/cartridge being used.

    By this point, the rifle has, for the most part, been modified sufficiently to make it reliable enough for military engagements, but the cartridge still doesn't seem to be able to make reliable kills at distances over 500 meters, making its users vulnerable to fire from full-sized battle rifle cartridges like the 7.62 x 54 often used by our adversaries.

    If the military is going to attempt to remain wedded to one battle rifle system for all combat environments, it probably needs to continue to solicit designs that will increase the reliability of the system while allowing it to be modified sufficiently to meet both short-range and long-range engagement distances with a sufficient rate of fire to kill multiple attackers up close and sufficient precision and range to kill individuals at long engagement distances. I'm not sure any single weapon can do both of these.
     

    InfraRed

    Plinker
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    Sep 3, 2011
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    I have to agree with USSOCOM on this issue.
    The M4 has it's flaws. 5.56 Ammo has it's flaws... But it's a pretty good rifle overall... We have a ton of them and there is more than enough ammo to go around.
    There
     

    InfraRed

    Plinker
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    Sep 3, 2011
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    oops.... There is no doubt in my mind that in the long run the Mk16 (SCAR Light) is a better rifle. It's very reliable and the barrel lasts A LOT longer than an M4.... but it is 2 to 3 times the cost. If you dump that kind of money into an M4 you can achieve the longevity of a SCAR. But the point of the M4 is to have a good battle rifle for the least amount of money.
    The thing that people often over look is the emotional attachment to the M4. Despite it's flaws the soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines LOVE their M4. It's like your first car.... Mine was a 77 Omega.... Beer Gold.... I LOVE THAT CAR.... It's not a Ferrari but it doesn't matter.
    Any way as I was saying... SOCOM made the right call.... Don't buy the SCAR light and replace the M4.... Just buy the SCAR Heavy in 7.62 because it's a great capability to add to the M4. Just have some of your guys carrying heavy ammo and have the capability to smoke a tango at 800 meters, but be able to turn around with the same 800 meter gun and kick in doors with it. Replacing the M4 doen't make any sense.
    as
     

    InfraRed

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    Sep 3, 2011
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    As for the Stopping Power of the 5.56.... I think I know the root cause of this rampant rumour. Don't take this as fact.... This is my theory.... Back in the early 90s the 5.56 penetrator (green tip) ammo was supposed to be "the best" do to the fact that you could punch through obsticles and still take out the bad guy. The secret squirrel groups always have the newest and "best" stuff around, so that is what they deployed with. In the Battle of Mogadishu the D Operators found the down side to Green Tip 5.56 ammo.... If you weren't shooting through an wall then hitting the enemy the round would pass right through the enemy like a laser beam. They were having a hard time putting guys down because of it. To combat this the ended up seeting ambush point and having multiple guys shoot multiple rounds at the same target to get them to drop..... Sure you could take a head shot.... But that's a mighty small target compared to center mass. There was a lot of soldiers in this battle and I'm sure the sea stories have been passed down about how the 5.56 couldn't drop the bad even though it was delta doing the shooting..... Anyway that's my theory.....
     

    gunowner930

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    Mar 25, 2010
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    Just buy the SCAR Heavy in 7.62 because it's a great capability to add to the M4. Just have some of your guys carrying heavy ammo and have the capability to smoke a tango at 800 meters, but be able to turn around with the same 800 meter gun and kick in doors with it. Replacing the M4 doen't make any sense.
    as

    They're still using the M14 in a similiar role. It's used as a designated marksman rifle. I've never fired one, but the SCAR H seems to be an outstanding weapon from what I've read, however its price tag is way too high to produce them in meaningful numbers. Special Forces can get ahold of them, but for the average Soldier and Marine it's not viable because of its cost.

    Blackhawk made a very good post when highlighting these rifles are a trade-off. The M4 is here for the foreseeable future. When a rifle is designed that blows the M4 out of the water at a reasonable price, then the M4 will be replaced.
     

    Plinkuh

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    10   0   0
    Dec 7, 2010
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    West Side of Indy
    I still think we should go with HK XM8. Say what you will about it's looks, but I think it'd be an excellent choice. Nobody needs to be lectured on HK's solid reliability.
     

    duffman0286

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    Feb 3, 2011
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    Wayne Co
    The cartridge is a real issue in the sandbox.
    in many cases yes but face it a retirement of the m4/m16/ or 5.56 wont happen in our life time.... too much money rap'd up in it plus keep in mine if remove the m16/m4 platform or the round where now searching for a replacement for the m249 because not only is it the same round it was designed to also accept m16 mags a idea we stole from the russian ak/rpk idea
     

    Psode27

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    4   0   0
    Jan 23, 2011
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    Rochester
    Great posts, great arguments! Things I haven't really weighed out in my head before! When im loading Fal mags I don't think about carrying 200rds for miles on end.
     

    archy

    Plinker
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    Apr 12, 2011
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    Oaktown/Vincennes ar
    The M4 is just fine for use by about 90% of the troops issued it, that being the 90% of the troops in the support and logistics tail who'll likely never fire a round in combat, just as the M1 carbine was issued to such folks during WWII, and served them much etter than would have a pistol or leftover WWI bolt rifle. It was for that reason that M1 carbines were produced in far larger numbers than the M1 Garand rifle, to the tune of about 2.5 carbines per Garand.

    Should there be a better rifle- and probably,cartridge developed and adopted. Possibly. But for a complete rookie, the M4 will do, and he/she will have a long way to go before they can use it to the utmost of the weapon's capabilities. For a real expert, it doesn't matter much, but they're more likely to be able to wring out evey bit of what such equipment is capable of, and may tend to wear such toyys out during teir continual practice, practice, practice.
     

    indyjoe

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    May 20, 2008
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    15209d1247204376-indian-army-vs-american-army-holy_necroposting_batman.jpg
     

    jotto

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    Apr 26, 2011
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    NW Indiana
    Whoever told you that was an idiot and very misinformed...

    You can take that idea and stash it with you Soldiering days... ;)

    Agree 100% with Jeremy. If I could get away with it (sarcasm implied) I'd rather run patrols with a Red Rider. So much lighter both weapon and ammo. :):
     

    NYFelon

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    May 1, 2011
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    DPRNY
    I don't know if it's been mentioned, but the standard M855 has over 1300 ft-lbf of muzzle energy. That is well beyond the requirements for lethal.
     
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