The War on some Drugs - Helmet Cam Edition

[TopDog]

So you've known your friend long enough and well enough to consider him a best friend, but because others in his profession do the wrong things you want nothing to do with him? I've never shot anyone's dog. In fact the last time I went into a home there was a large pitbull. I petted him. Why people can't see the distinction between cop and bad cop is beyond me. I guess making that distinction is mentally more difficult.

The problem is perception. Perception is that there are more and more bad cops. Bad cops get a lot more press and attention from the public than good cops. I have several friends that are cops and if it were not for them I would think from my last 3 contacts with local police that the force had become nothing but bad cops. I know better but the inclination is to judge all by the actions of a few when those negative actions by the few become more and more frequent.

 

[orange]

So you've known your friend long enough and well enough to consider him a best friend, but because others in his profession do the wrong things you want nothing to do with him? I've never shot anyone's dog. In fact the last time I went into a home there was a large pitbull. I petted him. Why people can't see the distinction between cop and bad cop is beyond me. I guess making that distinction is mentally more difficult.

Must say, I understand his point.

Take these no-knock raids. The killings of Jose Guerena, Aiyana Jones, Kathryn Johnson, many many more I could list.. these send a message to civilians: under the flimsiest of pretext or none whatsoever, even if we happen to hit a wrong address, we can and will kill you without consequences whatsoever.

Take the Blue Wall of Silence. Well demonstrated by the department shutting up and lawyering up after killing Guerena. I understand there's enormous pressure on individual officers to conform. I understand that even if there's obvious wrongdoing, anybody 'snitching' on fellow officers will be ostracized, sabotaged, left without backup in a dangerous place.. but that does not erase the problem. Instead, just makes all of you look complicit.

Finally, I know from personal experience the bad cops are few and far between. Most of my police interaction was with efficient, polite officers. Good guys. Then there was one who threatened to beat me bloody and throw me in jail utterly without provocation. Here's the thing.. the good guys wore the same color uniform as he.

 

[Ogre]

So you've known your friend long enough and well enough to consider him a best friend, but because others in his profession do the wrong things you want nothing to do with him? I've never shot anyone's dog. In fact the last time I went into a home there was a large pitbull. I petted him. Why people can't see the distinction between cop and bad cop is beyond me. I guess making that distinction is mentally more difficult.

As a matter of fact no, I still like hanging out with him, but others I have met through him have come off as arrogant and having a chip on their shoulder. It would make me pretty sad if he acted this way to people other than me and his other friends, but I guess I'll never know if he does or not.

Another example of this attitude; I was at the track Friday morning and 6 or so LEO's in BDU's were walking through turn three together (not sure if they were Speedway or IMPD), and one was carrying a paintball gun. My friends and I were curious and speculated it might be for shooting pepper spray balls (dont know the techincal term). I walked over and said, "Excuse me, is the paintball gun for shooting pepperspray balls?". One of the other officers quickly turned to me, puffed up his chest with thumbs in his duty belt, and replied, "yeah you want some that?" in a condescending tone (as in shot with it)... a little surprised I quickly said, "yeah sure, tazer too..." shook my head and walked away... This could have been an opportunity to not be a prick, but instead I got more of the us vs. them attitude.

 

[jsharmon7]

the displeasure is more with the police organization rather than all police individuals. you wear the uniform and you are no longer an individual, you represent the organization. yes there are very good cops out there, and yes there are also some bad ones, but in my opinion the police ORGANIZATION in its majority (that means all departments country wide) are heading in the WRONG and unconstitutional direction at an alarming rate, and a lot of the reason has to do with the federal govt and the DHS as a whole. they are just fear and war mongerers. I will still commend good officers when I see them or hear of them, but the fact that we allow police to have so much power and abuse it is sickening to me. rule of law is not supposed to be oppression and thats what we have in this country is oppression.

If a person thinks the war in Iraq is immoral and wrong, would you say they are justified in thinking that the soldiers fighting over there are immoral and wrong? Guilt by association is wrong.

The problem is perception. Perception is that there are more and more bad cops. Bad cops get a lot more press and attention from the public than good cops. I have several friends that are cops and if it were not for them I would think from my last 3 contacts with local police that the force had become nothing but bad cops. I know better but the inclination is to judge all by the actions of a few when those negative actions by the few become more and more frequent.

I understand this. Human nature dictates that if the snakes with rattles on them are found to be dangerous then we should be careful around all snakes with rattles that we come across. We shouldn't take that approach with people though. This is how racism, sexism, xenophobia, etc. all work. You're with this certain group so you're that way. Like I said above, don't automatically trust an officer but giving him the benefit of the doubt that he may be a decent person is certainly acceptable in my eyes. Caution, not contempt.

Must say, I understand his point.

Take these no-knock raids. The killings of Jose Guerena, Aiyana Jones, Kathryn Johnson, many many more I could list.. these send a message to civilians: under the flimsiest of pretext or none whatsoever, even if we happen to hit a wrong address, we can and will kill you without consequences whatsoever.

Take the Blue Wall of Silence. Well demonstrated by the department shutting up and lawyering up after killing Guerena. I understand there's enormous pressure on individual officers to conform. I understand that even if there's obvious wrongdoing, anybody 'snitching' on fellow officers will be ostracized, sabotaged, left without backup in a dangerous place.. but that does not erase the problem. Instead, just makes all of you look complicit.

Finally, I know from personal experience the bad cops are few and far between. Most of my police interaction was with efficient, polite officers. Good guys. Then there was one who threatened to beat me bloody and throw me in jail utterly without provocation. Here's the thing.. the good guys wore the same color uniform as he.

I tried to address this above. Caution, not contempt. As an officer, I can be cautious around a known gang member without treating him like a piece of trash. Maybe you've seen some officers that don't take that approach, but I think it's wrong to assume that none of them will. There are several members on INGO who clearly have contempt for all law enforcement officers and I don't understand it from a human standpoint. The post I originally responded to seemed to say that this friend of his is a great guy but he is almost ashamed of him for being a police officer and he didn't want to be around him. Maybe I misunderstood what the poster was saying about his friend.

 

[Ogre]

.... The post I originally responded to seemed to say that this friend of his is a great guy but he is almost ashamed of him for being a police officer and he didn't want to be around him. Maybe I misunderstood what the poster was saying about his friend.

That was not at all my intention, (which I addressed in my last post). In fact he has done some pretty stand up but extremely difficult things, that are true to his personal character.

 

[XMil]

Anybody involved in perpetrating swat team raids on non-violent people is an un-American douche bag. Period.

 

[serpicostraight]

don't automatically trust an officer but giving him the benefit of the doubt that he may be a decent person is certainly acceptable in my eyes. Caution, not contempt.
any chance cops might do that instead of killing people?

 

[jsharmon7]

I tried to address this above. Caution, not contempt. As an officer, I can be cautious around a known gang member without treating him like a piece of trash. Maybe you've seen some officers that don't take that approach, but I think it's wrong to assume that none of them will. There are several members on INGO who clearly have contempt for all law enforcement officers and I don't understand it from a human standpoint. The post I originally responded to seemed to say that this friend of his is a great guy but he is almost ashamed of him for being a police officer and he didn't want to be around him. Maybe I misunderstood what the poster was saying about his friend.

don't automatically trust an officer but giving him the benefit of the doubt that he may be a decent person is certainly acceptable in my eyes. Caution, not contempt.
any chance cops might do that instead of killing people?

Thanks for making my point. Your comment in the "domestic terrorist thread" about cops not being smart was even better, but this one works too. It's sad that adults try to have a polite and respectful discussion and people crap on it.

 

[serpicostraight]

Thanks for making my point. Your comment in the "domestic terrorist thread" about cops not being smart was even better, but this one works too. It's sad that adults try to have a polite and respectful discussion and people crap on it.

i dont think its that hard to figure out. you want the benefit of the doubt but you want to treat every other citizen like they are a criminal. its not rocket surgery.

 

[jsharmon7]

i dont think its that hard to figure out. you want the benefit of the doubt but you want to treat every other citizen like they are a criminal. its not rocket surgery.

If you want to take the time to actually read this thread and follow the discussion then I'll be glad to respond to your concerns. Until then, you're just spouting hate and ignorance.

 

[serpicostraight]

If you want to take the time to actually read this thread and follow the discussion then I'll be glad to respond to your concerns. Until then, you're just spouting hate and ignorance.

i tested once for phoenix pd i scored a 92 i never heard another word. my bil scored a 76 and got hired. i guess i need some help to figure that one out.

 

[E5RANGER375]

If a person thinks the war in Iraq is immoral and wrong, would you say they are justified in thinking that the soldiers fighting over there are immoral and wrong? Guilt by association is wrong.

soldiers dont have the authority to lock up or kill American citizens at home. when you guys compare police to military it really just shows ignorance. you cant compare the 2. believe me if soldiers were marching down the streets killing citizens illegally i would be protesting their actions too just the smae. there aint no green line with me, and I also wouldnt be calling cops who protested their actions soldier haters like all the cops do to us who protest failed police policies and tactics and call out the bad cops. what soldiers do in war is totally based on what politicians tell them to do (thats why we are still fighting 10 year wars), if it were left up to the soldiers we would have finished the enemy off a long time ago. also we wouldnt even be there in the first place. Because we would be on the borders killing illegal invaders.
with police its an issue of upholding the constitution. if enforcing a "law" violates my constitutional right then its illegal for you to enforce it. we need more free thinking cops who use discretion instead of blind enforcement. when I see swat teams kicking down a door killing people for a joint or for questioning, etc, thats not rational thinking cops in my opinion. its war mongering and oppression and illegal. so the cops at that point become no better to me than the "alleged" criminal they were after. the justice system is geared towards guilty BEFORE proven guilty. cops are part of that flawed process. thats why I CHOSE not to be a cop. its a very hard career to be TOTALLY legit and not violate rights of innocent people. for the ones who can, I applaud and support them. for the ones who **** up, they need locked up just like any other criminal.

 

[jsharmon7]

soldiers dont have the authority to lock up or kill American citizens at home. when you guys compare police to military it really just shows ignorance. you cant compare the 2. believe me if soldiers were marching down the streets killing citizens illegally i would be protesting their actions too. what soldiers do in war is totally based on what politicians tell them to do (thats why we are still fighting 10 year wars), if it were left up to the soldiers we would have finished the enemy off a long time ago. also we wouldnt even be there in the first place.
with police its an issue of upholding the constitution. if enforcing a "law" violates my constitutional right then its illegal for you to enforce it. we need more free thinking cops who use discretion instead of blind enforcement. when I see swat teams kicking down a door killing people for a joint or for questioning, etc, thats not rational thinking cops in my opinion. its war mongering and oppression and illegal. so the cops at that point become no better to me than the "alleged" criminal they were after. the justice system is geared towards guilty BEFORE proven guilty. cops are part of that flawed process. thats why I CHOSE not to be a cop. its a very hard career to be TOTALLY legit and not violate rights of innocent people. for the ones who can, I applaud and support them. for the ones who **** up, they need locked up just like any other criminal.

Arguing that their powers are different is just redirecting the issue. I'm asking you if it's fair for me to characterize you, E5ranger357, by the wars you are asked to fight? I know you're not fighting Americans and I know that you don't have the power to arrest Americans. I'm asking you if it's fair for me to say that because you fight in an unjust war that you must be unjust yourself?

Edit: I know that you claim that you don't categorize all officers, but lots of others here do. Police are automatically judged to be guilty before the facts come out. Police are judged to be murderers based on short video clips and media articles. The same media sources that have been shown on here many times to be biased. Is it fair for that to happen simply because people don't trust "the system?"

 

[E5RANGER375]

Arguing that their powers are different is just redirecting the issue. I'm asking you if it's fair for me to characterize you, E5ranger357, by the wars you are asked to fight? I know you're not fighting Americans and I know that you don't have the power to arrest Americans. I'm asking you if it's fair for me to say that because you fight in an unjust war that you must be unjust yourself?

unjust war by what standards? opinion? by constitutional standards the wars are technically just. the policies are just flawed. now if i committed acts of genocide (i didnt) then yes thats not legal. If I was still in the military and asked to act against American citizens and complied then that would be unjust and I cant say on INGO (rules) what I believe should happen at that point. its the same coarse of action I think should be taken with police who illegally enter a home.

some laws police enforce are constitutionally not legal. many times people dont have the money to fight them all the way to get them ruled unconstitutional, or the court refuses to hear the cases (because their hands are in the cookie jar too) and so it will never change.

let me ask you at what point (or what order) would you refuse to enforce against the citizens if ordered? or have you already been given an order you believe was unconstitutional and refused it?

 

[jsharmon7]

unjust war by what standards? opinion? by constitutional standards the wars are technically just. the policies are just flawed. now if i committed acts of genocide (i didnt) then yes thats not legal.

some laws police enforce are constitutionally not legal. many times people dont have the money to fight them all the way to get them ruled unconstitutional, or the court refuses to hear the cases (because their hands are in the cookie jar too) and so it will never change.

Unconstitutional laws by whose standards and opinions? Yours? Mine? The Supreme Courts'? If the state makes a law against drugs, and an officer follows the approved methods for obtaining a warrant (as specified by the Constitution), and then searches the home (as specified by the Constitution) then explain how that is unconstitutional? You may not agree that the law serves the best interest of society, but it doesn't make it unconstitutional.

 

[jsharmon7]

let me ask you at what point (or what order) would you refuse to enforce against the citizens if ordered? or have you already been given an order you believe was unconstitutional and refused it?

Any illegal order, if for no other reason than not putting my butt on the line criminally or civilly for a job. For example, if I'm ordered to walk into a house without a warrant and start searching, I'm not going there. I have not been put into that situation.

 

[E5RANGER375]

Unconstitutional laws by whose standards and opinions? Yours? Mine? The Supreme Courts'? If the state makes a law against drugs, and an officer follows the approved methods for obtaining a warrant (as specified by the Constitution), and then searches the home (as specified by the Constitution) then explain how that is unconstitutional? You may not agree that the law serves the best interest of society, but it doesn't make it unconstitutional.

is the patriot act legal? your answer will sum it all up for me. thanks for answering my other question and also for not being willing to illegally searching someones home I have KNOWN cops who would and have had no problems with it

 

[jsharmon7]

is the patriot act legal? your answer will sum it all up for me. thanks for answering my other question and also for not being willing to illegally searching someones home I have KNOWN cops who would and have had no problems with it

I will answer shortly, I need to research the Patriot Act a little bit more due to my ignorance on it. I'm not sure how it impacts local law enforcement and I need to read up.

Stand by.

 

[mrjarrell]

Unconstitutional laws by whose standards and opinions? Yours? Mine? The Supreme Courts'? If the state makes a law against drugs, and an officer follows the approved methods for obtaining a warrant (as specified by the Constitution), and then searches the home (as specified by the Constitution) then explain how that is unconstitutional? You may not agree that the law serves the best interest of society, but it doesn't make it unconstitutional.

So, you'd be good enforcing something like the Fugitive Slave Act? Or confiscating firearms, if the courts said it was OK?

 

[E5RANGER375]

I will answer shortly, I need to research the Patriot Act a little bit more due to my ignorance on it. I'm not sure how it impacts local law enforcement and I need to read up.

Stand by.

well at least your honest. i am sad that you dont know what it is. we need all the people we can get on board to protest it. i'll standby for your answer. thanks