Thoughts on carry condition?

[1911ly]

S &W 642-3 revolver. No hammer and of course no safety so...

1911 cocked and if I remember to, the safety is on. I don't get anal about it. A gun that is not ready to fire might as well be a rock in a shtf situation. I will admit that I carried the 1911 on a empty chamber at first. After I got more confidence I changed that in a hurry! After carrying a revolver for a while I worried less about the safety switch! I just carry ready to go now.

 

[VERT]

Butterscotch FTW!!

Only way to safely carry!

 

[Bennettjh]

Condition 0 for me. Anything else is a rock.

 

[Classic Liberal]

This post can only go well....

Sig 226 one in the chamber, hammer decocked.

Glock 17 one in the chamber

SP101 one in each chamber

AR15 one in the chamber, safety on

M240 on the feed tray, bolt forward


Catching my drift here? ready to fire on all but the machine gun in which case i can jack the charging handle and i'm ready to go. Not carrying ready to fire is just asking for trouble.

It's not ready to fire if the safety is on.

 

[Cameramonkey]

loaded, cocked, ready to pull trigger only. safeties will get you killed.

Really?

It's not ready to fire if the safety is on.

Or it can save your life if you are the bad guy...

(sorry, I'm lazy and this is the first story I found via google)

Bystander helped foil armored car heist, but at what risk?

FTA:

Jeff told The Star that he not only tackled Jackson but tried to shoot him seconds before. Jeff chased Jackson until he was five to 10 yards behind him. Jeff stopped, raised the .22 and squeezed the trigger.
The gun didn't fire. The safety was on.

Not saying safeties are bad, but train, people, TRAIN! Glad for Jeff's sake it wasnt a full-on gunfight. He'd probably be dead.

When I carry my 1911 its Condition 0. Luckilly for me its a natural motion to disengage the thumb break and the safety at the same time. I even sweep the safety lever during my draw practice of my Glocks. A downward sweep of the thumb during the draw doesnt do any harm on a glock.

 

[Mr Evilwrench]

ZERO. I carry a 1911 type like a 1910, no thumb safety unless I'm setting it down on the table, maybe not even then. BUT, my P12 does NOT have a half cock, so it's all or nothing. Not gonna leave a hammer down on a live round. Thumb safety's on the wrong side for me anyway.

 

[mbaza3]

I found the below on the 1911 forum. I think it is some great info.


Single Action is just fine for concealed carry. A lot of the hype around the da/sa "safety factor" is because a company called Glock

marketed themselves (very successfully) as the "safe action pistol".

However, there is a MAJOR problem with the Glock style safety concept. Back to that in a second.

First the basics of the da/sa vs 1911 safety-
DA/SA
1. NO manual safeties
2. double action trigger so that the weapon can be cocked and fired with one pull of the trigger.

The 1911-
1. Built in grip safety
2. Manual Safety
3. The trigger pull cannot fire the gun if the gun is not cocked (okay okay, that is a little obvious.)
4. Jeff Cooper and the 4 laws.

Now to the reason why IMHO da/sa is actually LESS safe. The da/sa guns (most of them anyway) are built with no manual safeties because they supposedly do not need them since they are double action on the first shot. However, this can lead someone to think that "hey this is a safe gun I dont need to worry about safety". Now some people will say that da/sa is less safe because if dropped something could pull the trigger and make the gun go off, BUT that is EXTREMELY unlikely. The much more likely scenario is that someone has their finger on the trigger and is nervous, or not paying attention and just pulls it.

This is where the 1911 can actually help the shooter in safety- 1) the 1911 has manual safety that when engaged will keep the gun from firing. 2) the 1911 has a grip safety so that if dropped in that 1 in a 1000000000000 scenario where something contacts the trigger, the gun will still not go off because the grip is not properly depressed. 3.)Because of the inherent "danger" of the short trigger pull of a single action weapon like the 1911 you will find that most 1911 shooters (and Im sure my fellow forum members could quote them with me) have continuously drilled into their collective heads the 4 laws of shooting as put forth by a fellow named Jeff Cooper. Those four laws of safe gun handling were like this.
1) ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED.
2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you do not want to kill/destroy.
3) Keep your finger OFF the trigger until you see what you are sure you want to kill/destroy in your sights.
4) Always know your target and what is behind it.

Remembering and living by those four laws of safe shooting will do more to help you be safe with your firearm than any manual safety or double action trigger pull. Because it is FAR more likely that if you walk around with your finger on the trigger of a da/sa, that you will accidentally discharge that weapon than if you are holding your trigger clear on a 1911 (or visa versa).

I guess what Im trying to emphasize is mainly this- Gun safety is NOT produced through design but through shooter caution.

 

[Mr Evilwrench]

Personally, I've burned those four laws into my brain so thoroughly that they may as well be hardwired. As an engineer, this is the way my brain works. These rules make sense logically, and I commit to them. Given that, an ND becomes harmless if not impossible. The discipline that makes it so with a single action makes it even more so with DA/SA. The thumb safety becomes irrelevant. I have SA, DA/SA, and DA/SA+ pistols, but carry the SA. The way I handle my 1911s, I worry not at all about the 92FS or the Daewoo DP51, or anything else.

 

[Classic Liberal]

Personally, I've burned those four laws into my brain so thoroughly that they may as well be hardwired. As an engineer, this is the way my brain works. These rules make sense logically, and I commit to them. Given that, an ND becomes harmless if not impossible. The discipline that makes it so with a single action makes it even more so with DA/SA. The thumb safety becomes irrelevant. I have SA, DA/SA, and DA/SA+ pistols, but carry the SA. The way I handle my 1911s, I worry not at all about the 92FS or the Daewoo DP51, or anything else.

Very true...I think that if someone is fearful of a ND, refuses to carry with one in the chamber, or uses a safety, they need more training and shouldn't carry until they are comfortable carrying in Condition 0

My brain is my safety, along with having my handgun in a solid holster that protects the trigger.
As I see it, as long as I keep my handgun in the holster, it simply isn't going to discharge. The only reason I have to remove the handgun with the safety off is if I am indeed going to be aiming at something and pulling the trigger shortly thereafter. Otherwise, it remains in the holster 24/7. If I am to remove the handgun from the holster for any other reason, the safety gets flipped on first.

With this methodology, I am 100% confident that I will never have a ND. Those that carry shouldn't be afraid of their firearms, more so of understanding how they function and handle them appropriately.

 

[red46239]

Butterscotch FTW!!

First thing I thought of when I read the OP...

 

[CWELLS1313]

I no you all say gotta be cocked and locked but with no external safety I don't carry one in the pipe

 

[ModernGunner]

...When I carry my 1911 its Condition 0. Luckilly for me its a natural motion to disengage the thumb break and the safety at the same time. I even sweep the safety lever during my draw practice of my Glocks...

CM, correct me if I'm wrong, but if you have to sweep off the trigger, isn't that Condition 1 rather than Condition 0?

...Now to the reason why IMHO da/sa is actually LESS safe. The da/sa guns (most of them anyway) are built with no manual safeties because they supposedly do not need them since they are double action on the first shot. However, this can lead someone to think that "hey this is a safe gun I dont need to worry about safety". Now some people will say that da/sa is less safe because if dropped something could pull the trigger and make the gun go off, BUT that is EXTREMELY unlikely. The much more likely scenario is that someone has their finger on the trigger and is nervous, or not paying attention and just pulls it.

Remembering and living by those four laws of safe shootingwill do more to help you be safe with your firearm than any manual safety or double action triggerpull. Because it is FAR more likely that if you walk around with your finger on the trigger of a da/sa, that you will accidentally discharge that weapon than if you are holding your trigger clear on a 1911 (or visa versa).

JMO, but a fallacious and ludicrous observation as it assumes that those utilizing a DA/SA (or DAO) 'never' observe the 4 rules of safety, that 1911-type owners 'always' do, and that DA/SA/DAO owners 'always and automatically' put their finger on the trigger.

The safety training, and observation of the rules of safety, is the same regardless of the type of handgun involved. It is an entire error in both logic and substance to assume that SA-only carriers are 'automatically' or 'more substantively' trained than other shooters. Nothing could be further from the truth, as training and the receptiveness of that training depends solely upon the individual.

Revolvers, SA/DA's, and DAO's do, in fact, have a 'safety'. That is the longer and more 'definite' pull of the DA trigger.

Not long ago a YouTube clip was posted on INGO of a 1911 aficionado shooting himself in the leg during the draw as he had trained to 'automatically' sweep off the 1911 thumb safety during the draw (IIRC the holster was a Safariland ALS, NOT a Serpa CQC). That is no different than the yabo that 'automatically' places his finger on the trigger of a striker fire pistol, particularly when drawing from a Serpa CQC-type holster.

This is a training / user issue, whether 1911-type or Glock-type, NOT any type of 'flaw' in the design of the 1911, the Glock, OR the Serpa CQC. 'Curiously', SOME Instructors have banned the Serpa CQC from being used, but not the 1911, though the same issue exists in both: 'Automatically' placing the finger on the trigger at the wrong time during the draw. Obviously, a 'bias' toward the holster, and in favor of the 1911, likely due to being a 'fan' of the 1911.

This issue exists with ALL firearms and the solution is remarkably easy: keep your finger off the damn trigger until the firearm is ready to be discharged. THAT is something the Instructor should be teaching from 'Minute 1', therefore the Serpa CQC 'ban' would appear to be more an issue of laziness on the part of the Instructor, rather than an 'inherent design flaw'.

 

[rjthebassman]

First thing I thought of when I read the OP...

Alright, someone let me in on this because I'm not following lol.

 

[kawtech87]

Alright, someone let me in on this because I'm not following lol.

Here you go. Enjoy!

[video=youtube_share;8pU2IOTEZlU]http://youtu.be/8pU2IOTEZlU[/video]

 

[ashby koss]

Use what your train with and what you feel safest with. I went Glock for this reason, and a secure holster. In a 1911 I'd probably run the safety, but only because I have nieces, nephews and a son, we plan on the floor... ( Serpa retention holster, or Mtac..)

But ALWAYS loaded for me. Rule Number 1 "treat all guns as if they are loaded" therefore they mise well be loaded.

 

[Classic Liberal]

Use what your train with and what you feel safest with. I went Glock for this reason, and a secure holster. In a 1911 I'd probably run the safety, but only because I have nieces, nephews and a son, we plan on the floor... ( Serpa retention holster, or Mtac..)

But ALWAYS loaded for me. Rule Number 1 "treat all guns as if they are loaded" therefore they mise well be loaded.

Condition Butterscotch is awesome...truly is a mockery of any condition other than 0

Regardless of the activity, if your handgun is in a secure holster and the safety off, how could you possibly ever have a ND? IMHO, if you have children around, wouldn't you want your handgun to be ready to fire if you did remove it from the holster for protection?

Can anyone show me a single instance on the interwebz where a handgun has had a ND in a secure holster? Don't show me the one of some jackass using a floppy leather holster either!

 

[Robjps]

If you are carrying a firearm with a manual safety you need to train to sweep the safety off regardless if you use it not.

 

[JetGirl]

Cocked/Locked... but I practice the draw. Autopilot = safety snick.

Butterscotch FTW!!

Man, when I brought that here back in the day, I never would have guessed it would still be around.
That tickles me.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Can anyone show me a single instance on the interwebz where a handgun has had a ND in a secure holster? Don't show me the one of some jackass using a floppy leather holster either!

Inside the holster isn't usually the issue. I'll range a bit off topic here, but people tend to shoot themselves with surprising regularity. I'd say we get at least 2-3 a month, and the reasons for shooting themselves fall into one of a hand full of major categories (the first two are the most common by far):

1) Pulling the trigger with no magazine but one in the chamber. (AKA: pre-heating the barrel before cleaning your Glock)
2) Putting the gun away (sometimes in a holster and sometimes in a waistband or pocket) and something (usually a finger but sometimes clothing) hits the trigger. (AKA: Glock leg)
3) Pocket carry with other things in the pocket and no holster (AKA: Raven thigh)
4) "Hey ya'll watch this" or "I'm super thug cool guy flashing my gun" shenanigans. (AKA: It just went off)

Once its in the holster, if one is used, they are good to go. Shoving it in or pulling it out (gigigity) is when things go awry.

 

[Paul30]

Prefer mag loaded, chambered, SA/DA hammer down, Sig P226, no safety other than a long heavy trigger pull. I like the idea of a longer trigger pull on the first shot. I can shoot just as accurate with DA, and a SA pull makes me a bit nervous in a SD situation simply because in a possible panic situation, heavy adrenalin, things unfolding fast, I don't want a light trigger pull that I could possibly shoot someone unintentionally. There are self defense situations where I will put my finger on the trigger even if there is no target and if I have to fire a shot it will be faster than if I had my finger outside the trigger guard. I would never feel comfortable doing this with a SA pistol. I would also be nervous holstering a striker fired pistol simply because I know if it hangs on anything it goes off. A SA / DA or DAO pistol would need way more pressure for this to happen than a person would put on the pistol to holster it.

My problem this year is I wanted to downsize to a more comfortable carry gun and got a S&W Shield. I use the safety, but wish I didn't need it. If Sig made a miniature version of the P229 I would be all over it. They make the 238, but I really want to stay with 9mm and I really want a SA / DA. Maybe Sig will make a new model some day that fits this. If I carry the Shield, it is loaded, chambered, safety on. I hate having the safety on because I'm certain I will forget it is on in a crisis, but don't feel comfortable carrying it without it on. Best I can do is sweep the safety every time I practice with it and hope it happens if I need it.