Thoughts on private gun sales

[Ingomike]

So it's much better to sell the firearm to a total stranger you've never met before, don't check anything, no ID or LTCH or nothing, not even a peek, just that he/she had the requisite number of benjamins and didn't flat out tell you was a felon?

Only sell to complete strangers that you know nothing about? That sounds like you're saying that's what the state/federal regulations mean.

Follow the law is what is required. Anything more and you may cross a line you didn’t intend to.

 

[Axxe55]

That’s the fault of the person with the records, the records themselves aren’t the problem. My records are MINE, the federal government doesn’t know they exist unless I divulge that info to them. If they want to see these records, they can apply for a search warrant.

If you filled out a BOS, and the person you sold the gun to has their copy, then they have a link for proving probable cause and to possibly very easily get a search warrant, which most likely will be in their hands when show up and knocking on your door.

 

[CheeseheadHoosier]

If you filled out a BOS, and the person you sold the gun to has their copy, then they have a link for proving probable cause and to possibly very easily get a search warrant, which most likely will be in their hands when show up and knocking on your door.

Probable cause for what crime? Call me crazy, but people who knowingly sell guns to prohibited persons aren’t generally in the habit of documenting their crimes.

 

[Gabriel]

If you filled out a BOS, and the person you sold the gun to has their copy, then they have a link for proving probable cause and to possibly very easily get a search warrant, which most likely will be in their hands when show up and knocking on your door.

What?

 

[ditcherman]

What?

4D chess is back.

 

[Destro]

Probable cause for what crime? Call me crazy, but people who knowingly sell guns to prohibited persons aren’t generally in the habit of documenting their crimes.

People involved in crimes that involve buying and selling typically keep detailed records

 

[Axxe55]

Probable cause for what crime? Call me crazy, but people who knowingly sell guns to prohibited persons aren’t generally in the habit of documenting their crimes.

Selling firearms without having an FFL. The feds have used a BOS as a basis for selling as dealer without having the proper license.

 

[Axxe55]

People involved in crimes that involve buying and selling typically keep detailed records

Those records show cause and intent to sell firearms without having an FFL.

The number of firearms sold without having an FFL is arbitrary to the ATF when they decide to make a case against you. How many want to trust the ATF on the that number?

 

[Axxe55]

It's all a moot point if you have complete faith and trust in the ATF is going to be your friend!

 

[CheeseheadHoosier]

Selling firearms without having an FFL. The feds have used a BOS as a basis for selling as dealer without having the proper license.

We’re talking about two very different scenarios. The average gun owner who sells a gun every few years or so (so like 99% of the users in this forum) does not have to worry about the ATF showing up with a search warrant for selling without a FFL… the biggest issue sellers would face is potentially selling to a prohibited person, but as long as sellers do their due diligence, it’s not an issue. A BOS is highly unlikely to cause a problem for a seller. If the ATF does show up to the seller’s door, it would more than likely be because a serial number trace of a firearm used in a crime listed them as the original transferee.

The scenario you’re describing is someone acting as a black market dealer, which is not what this thread is about. In that instance, I would agree that multiple BOSs found in the seller’s possession could be used as evidence against them should the ATF discover those documents. That’s why most black market dealers would be stupid to record their firearm sales (lol to the user who claimed that most of them do keep documentation on their sales, they definitely do not…). This is not legal advice, and I don’t advise or condone breaking the law.

 

[BigRed]

My thoughts on private gun sales?

I think all gun sales should be private.

 

[Axxe55]

We’re talking about two very different scenarios. The average gun owner who sells a gun every few years or so (so like 99% of the users in this forum) does not have to worry about the ATF showing up with a search warrant for selling without a FFL… the biggest issue sellers would face is potentially selling to a prohibited person, but as long as sellers do their due diligence, it’s not an issue. A BOS is highly unlikely to cause a problem for a seller. If the ATF does show up to the seller’s door, it would more than likely be because a serial number trace of a firearm used in a crime listed them as the original transferee.

The scenario you’re describing is someone acting as a black market dealer, which is not what this thread is about. In that instance, I would agree that multiple BOSs found in the seller’s possession could be used as evidence against them should the ATF discover those documents. That’s why most black market dealers would be stupid to record their firearm sales (lol to the user who claimed that most of them do keep documentation on their sales, they definitely do not…). This is not legal advice, and I don’t advise or condone breaking the law.

In Texas, we only have to meet two criteria for a private sale. that the prospective buyer is a resident of Texas, and that we "knowingly" do not know they are prohibited person. If there are no laws requiring doing or keeping a BOS, then why do one in the first place? I see no advantages to doing a BOS.

 

[CheeseheadHoosier]

In Texas, we only have to meet two criteria for a private sale. that the prospective buyer is a resident of Texas, and that we "knowingly" do not know they are prohibited person. If there are no laws requiring doing or keeping a BOS, then why do one in the first place? I see no advantages to doing a BOS.

As others in this thread have stated, ATF came to their doors over firearms sold privately that were used in crimes, and BOSs helped clear them of any wrongdoing.

Another advantage I can think of is if you want to buy the gun back down the road for whatever reason, you have the buyer’s contact information. People do the same thing with cars, and it’s not seen as abnormal.

 

[jagee]

Poor horse.

 

[MCgrease08]

I’m just saying that if the ATF knocks on your door over a firearm trace, it could very well be because of a felon in possession of a firearm case. Not just because they’re looking at you for selling firearms without a FFL, as Route 45 suggested.

I can attest to this from personal experience.

In my case it wasn't a gun I had sold, but one that was stolen. And the ATF never handed me a search warrant, but I did get a subpoena requiring me to testify in federal court.

Call from ATF: My stolen gun connected to triple homicide

I got an interesting phone call from an ATF agent out of Kentucky this evening. The Colt Detective Special I had stolen in a home burglary almost five years ago has been recovered. Apparently it was in the possession of an Indiana man who is one of three suspects in a triple homicide involving a...

www.indianagunowners.com

 

[Hkindiana]

I know someone who closed up his firearm business and had an inventory of over 500 firearms. The ATF told him to log out all of the firearms to himself to clear up his books. He asked what he could do with the firearms and the ATF agent said “you can sell them, just don’t buy new ones to sell, or you will be considered dealing in firearms without a license”. So, in this case, selling 500 firearms in a year was OK without a license.

 

[Axxe55]

As others in this thread have stated, ATF came to their doors over firearms sold privately that were used in crimes, and BOSs helped clear them of any wrongdoing.

Another advantage I can think of is if you want to buy the gun back down the road for whatever reason, you have the buyer’s contact information. People do the same thing with cars, and it’s not seen as abnormal.

I don't have to prove I did nothing wrong. They would have to prove I did do something wrong.
If you want to do a BOS, that is entirely your option. But considering it's not a law or a requirement I won't do one.

 

[brdhntr37]

Poor horse.

At this point, the horse is numb to everything

 

[brdhntr37]

I know someone who closed up his firearm business and had an inventory of over 500 firearms. The ATF told him to log out all of the firearms to himself to clear up his books. He asked what he could do with the firearms and the ATF agent said “you can sell them, just don’t buy new ones to sell, or you will be considered dealing in firearms without a license”. So, in this case, selling 500 firearms in a year was OK without a license.

I couldn't imagine what the wife would say if one day I took in 500 guns

 

[Ingomike]

I know someone who closed up his firearm business and had an inventory of over 500 firearms. The ATF told him to log out all of the firearms to himself to clear up his books. He asked what he could do with the firearms and the ATF agent said “you can sell them, just don’t buy new ones to sell, or you will be considered dealing in firearms without a license”. So, in this case, selling 500 firearms in a year was OK without a license.

Is this the Monday ATF story or the Thursday ATF story? We cannot even rely on their written opinions. How can we rely on their verbal? They must change those on a daily basis…