Training the caveman vs. training the athlete

[rvb]

the caveman can be trained, through repetitions. The caveman is the athlete. If you don't put in the repetitions, the caveman will do stupid ****. If you put in the repetitions, the caveman will look like an athlete.

-rvb

Some discussion on another board made me think of something to add on this one...
Having ROd a lot of shooters in competition, I've seen a lot of new guys... What I've seen of the caveman is a guy who gets behind the curve, lost in the problem, frankly in a bit of a panic state. As an RO I've learned to recognize this and watch very closely, because this is when safety mistakes often happen (180 violations, ADs, sweeping yourself, etc). I've seen the caveman run out of ammo and keep pulling the trigger wondering why it isn't going bang. I've seen the caveman stare at his stove-piped gun trying to process the problem. I've even seen the caveman do the "caveman proof" over-hand rack and fail to grab the slide or pull it back hard enough.

If you've put in the reps to automatically do something and do it well, it's no longer a caveman response. I don't care if its an over-hand slide-racking reload or use of slide release levers. They are both equally "athlete." To say one method is better under stress because it is "more caveman" fails to recognize just how stupid the caveman is.

just another of my "against the grain" opinions....

-rvb

 

[Fourtrax]

That's good stuff^^^^^^^

 

[cedartop]

That's good stuff^^^^^^^

No its not. It doesn't matter if you use caveman or athlete technique's, if you don't put in the time and effort to make them reflexive. Is using the slide stop a better method than over the top if you never practice either one? What Ryan talks about witnessing isn't an indictment of poor or suboptimal technique, but rather poor or nonexistent practice.

I told Jackson when he was in one of my classes that I could tell he puts in a lot of work. Not because of his good shooting, but his safe, efficient, and robust gun handling. This is apparent in many of my classes. People who handle their weapons that way will probably do well regardless of which "camp" they are in due to effort and diligence.

 

[cedartop]

BTW, I know Ryan alluded to that in his last paragraph but I feel he drew the wrong conclusion. (I still love you though, man)

 

[rvb]

No its not. It doesn't matter if you use caveman or athlete technique's, if you don't put in the time and effort to make them reflexive. Is using the slide stop a better method than over the top if you never practice either one? What Ryan talks about witnessing isn't an indictment of poor or suboptimal technique, but rather poor or nonexistent practice.

Maybe you need to re-read my post? Maybe I suck at communicating? But it sounds like you agree with me completely.

-rvb

ps. You use "caveman" and "athlete" as descriptions for techniques. I'm saying the inner caveman becomes the athlete after putting in the repetitions, regardless of technique chosen. That distinction may be the reason for the miscommunication. I think the over-all concept is the same.

 

[cedartop]

Maybe you need to re-read my post? Maybe I suck at communicating? But it sounds like you agree with me completely.

-rvb

See my post immediately above yours.

 

[rvb]

See my post immediately above yours.

I feel he drew the wrong conclusion.

I seriously don't see how our conclusions differ, other than semantics.........

If you've put in the reps to automatically do something and do it well, it's no longer a caveman response. I don't care if its an over-hand slide-racking reload or use of slide release levers.

It doesn't matter if you use caveman or athlete technique's, if you don't put in the time and effort to make them reflexive. Is using the slide stop a better method than over the top if you never practice either one?

-rvb

 

[CB45]

I didn't think this was the "Defensive Pistol Training" / "Mindset Lab" / "FOF" sub forum.

Competition shooters can't be corrrect in this sub forum, because games get you killed. Duh!

 

[bwframe]

I think you guys should just go ahead and swap spit...

 

[Tnichols00]

If caveman wins the fight, you bet. The fastest race car doesn't win the race, the one that finishes first does.

Bad analogy, in a race there are multiple finishers and only one winner, perfect driving line and no speed loses a race not wins it. To win a true race you not only need to be the fastest around the track.(Firing) but you also need the fasted pit crew ( assessment of malfunction and fixing the problem as quickly as possible.)

It looks like you are a IMPO, Im assuming you carry a glock, This is like your motor being reliable, but not matter how reliable your motor is if your the second one across the line your not taking home the trophy

 

[cedartop]

I seriously don't see how our conclusions differ, other than semantics.........r








-rvb

If we are in agreement, then I submit, you sir are a genius!

 

[cedartop]

Sorry, double post.

 

[cedartop]

Competition shooters can't be corrrect in this sub forum, because games get you killed. Duh!

If someone here said that, I must have missed it. I am a huge supporter of the shooting sports in general, and action pistol competition specifically. What those of you who are really good can do amazes me. My only major disagreement in this whole deal comes in when someone says situational awareness and being a top competitor are all you need to triumph in a violent encounter. Even then I can be in complete disagreement with the person and not dislike them. I enjoy these conversations and always hope to learn something new that I can go put to the test.

 

[rvb]

you sir are a genius!

Sorry, double post.

That's ok, that was worth repeating.

-rvb

 

[rhino]

That's ok, that was worth repeating.

-rvb

Engineers!!!

 

[Fourtrax]

So, Cedartop........

Are you now saying RVB's post that I referenced as "good" is a good post or not, c'mon man.......what is it?

 

[Fourtrax]

?.........situational awareness and being a top competitor are all you need to triumph in a violent encounter.

yep, that about sums up my feelings on the whole matter. I would add "willingness" to those attributes and call it a day.

Some people are not willing, you can't help those people.

 

[cedartop]

.

If you've put in the reps to automatically do something and do it well, it's no longer a caveman response. I don't care if its an over-hand slide-racking reload or use of slide release levers. They are both equally "athlete." To say one method is better under stress because it is "more caveman" fails to recognize just how stupid the caveman is.

just another of my "against the grain" opinions....

-rvb

Ryan sorry for not giving a better explanation before. When at work I TRY to only post at break time. Where I think we differ on this is that you still see the "caveman" techniques as inferior. Correct me if I am wrong. I do not agree that if you put the reps in it is no longer a caveman response. We start people off in combatives with relatively simple moves that will work against resistance. As I have said somewhere before, these moves still have to be practiced to be effective, but the nice thing is they get to the heart of the matter and will work for the majority of people under real resistance without devoting multiple classes 3X a week. We are not teaching a bunch of filler that at best is unneeded and at worst will not work under pressure when you need it. Just because you decide that you want to devote more time and energy and continue to learn doesn't mean that the stuff we taught you before is no longer relevant or doesn't work. We taught that stuff first because it is the most likely to be what you need. The probable, now you can move on to the possible if desired.

Where it looks like we differ is that I think someone learning "caveman" techniques, provided they ingrain them, can still prevail just as well in a deadly force encounter as an "athlete". Even more so if the "athlete" only knows one thing, i.e. how to shoot well. Don't take this to mean that I don't believe in being able to shoot well. I absolutely do. I am not a minute of man type teacher. My main reason for this is because those rounds you miss with have to go somewhere and you are responsible for them. That alone should be enough reason to become proficient or better.

To be specific, why would I prefer to use over the top as opposed to slide release. 1) I am left handed. 2) It is consistent with malfunction clearance protocol. 3) Depending on the gun I am using I have a hard time hitting the slide release with gloves on. Is the slide release faster? Is for me, and probably most people, and here is a dirty secret if you promise not to tell; if I am at slide lock I use the slide release.

What is ironic is that I am posting in this thread at all, especially taking the position that I am, given I don't even believe in cavemen as such.

 

[Rob377]

... Is the slide release faster? Is for me, and probably most people, and here is a dirty secret if you promise not to tell; if I am at slide lock I use the slide release.

What is ironic is that I am posting in this thread at all, especially taking the position that I am, given I don't even believe in cavemen as such.

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

 

[rvb]

you still see the "caveman" techniques as inferior. Correct me if I am wrong.

that's a fair statement. Often slower, inefficient. Why do YOU use the slide release if it's not better in some way than running the slide? Why is it good for you but not your students?

We start people off in combatives with relatively simple moves that will work against resistance. As I have said somewhere before, these moves still have to be practiced to be effective, but the nice thing is they get to the heart of the matter and will work for the majority of people under real resistance without devoting multiple classes 3X a week.

So you cater to the lowest common denominator student who won't put in the practice required (even though, as you say, all techniques have to be practiced to be effective), but does that make the universal, simple, "caveman" response actually better? If someone is willing to put in the work, shouldn't they be given the best tools (or do we say methods like using the slide release are "wrong" since they don't work for everyone, including the non-practicing lowest common denominator?)?

Where it looks like we differ is that I think someone learning "caveman" techniques, provided they ingrain them, can still prevail just as well in a deadly force encounter as an "athlete". Even more so if the "athlete" only knows one thing, i.e. how to shoot well.

No where did I say "that caveman stuff will get you killed in the real world." I do think some "athlete techniques" are slightly better (apparently, so do you). If all the "athlete" knows is shooting well (which to me includes reloads, malfunction clearing, shooting around cover, shooting on the move, etc), then any other "other stuff" (deciding when to engage, finding cover, etc) should be technique independent, right, so it can be learned by someone using "athlete techniques."

the whole point of my post was that even in competition, which some claim is no real test of performance under pressure, I've seen folks just stare dumbly at their gun, w no clue how to solve the problem (even if they "know" what the solution is). To me, that's the caveman, with that deer-in-the-headlights look on his face, struggling to operate this modern contraption in his hands. I believe whichever method you choose you have to put in the reps to make the response automatic. Then the caveman becomes an athlete, using whatever technique he's trained in. I do not believe there is a magic technique that, as Yeager basically said, skips the thinking part of the brain and goes right to the "caveman" brain. It so happens that some techniques are faster ("athlete") and some are more generic ("caveman").

-rvb