Video: Proof that Concealed Carry Permit Holders Live in a Dream World

[Jackson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QjZY3WiO9s&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLN6_s66wTg

The overall point made in the video is BS and the "study" methods show clear bias. However, the problems discussed are real. To me, it highlights the need for realistic force-on-force training if you intend to prevail.

 

[Shay]

It's easy to craft a scenario where the student is almost guaranteed to fail.

 

[the1kidd03]

Indeed. This video is IUPUI's reasoning for not allowing carry on campus. They actually have it on their website. Anyhow, some of the issues are real while others are complete BS. The instructor who played the "aggressor" clearly knew which student was carrying the gun each time he walked into the room and targeted them accordingly.

 

[Jackson]

It's easy to craft a scenario where the student is almost guaranteed to fail.

You mean by primarily picking students who had no interest in carrying before, putting them in the middle of the room, letting them falsly believe they are still in the set-up phase of the training/scenario, and then putting them against firearms instructors who seem to know where in the room they are sitting and went right for them as soon as they stood up? I agree. The methods were clearly biased.

However, some of the other issues they discuss such as tunnel vision, loss of some fine motor skills, need to practice and refine draw stroke, and training to observe and implement Rule 4 (target foreground and background) are real problems and need to be incorporated in to training.

 

[cobber]

However, some of the other issues they discuss such as tunnel vision, loss of some fine motor skills, need to practice and refine draw stroke, and training to observe and implement Rule 4 (target foreground and background) are real problems and need to be incorporated in to training.

But the video barely mentions that the students weren't nearly as well trained (read not trained at all) as the officers staging the demonstration. So the video proved nothing.


This video has been posted and dissected twice before in the last year. Not to say it's not still a farce.

 

[Jackson]

But the video barely mentions that the students weren't nearly as well trained (read not trained at all) as the officers staging the demonstration. So the video proved nothing.


This video has been posted and dissected twice before in the last year. Not to say it's not still a farce.

I didn't realize it had been posted before. I also agree that it proved nothing about the efficacy of concealed carry to stop a threat.

 

[Lex Concord]

No, it's far better that you have no chance and there is guaranteed to be no job left for the police but forensics.

 

[cobber]

I didn't realize it had been posted before. I also agree that it proved nothing about the efficacy of concealed carry to stop a threat.

Yeah, there were some pretty heated comments on it. It's a typical MSM 'expose'. Obviously training is the key, which none of the kids had. And in each evolution, the student was shooting in the same spot, which made the officer's response fairly easy.

They should have had a class full of armed students WITHOUT informing the officer. THAT would have been interesting.

Seriously, if students were allowed the RKBA, what are the odds only one armed student would be in a class if a gunman staged an attack?

 

[gregkl]

Doesn't IDPA style shooting strive to address these issues?

 

[the1kidd03]

Doesn't IDPA style shooting strive to address these issues?

they shoot back in IDPA?

 

[HICKMAN]

Doesn't IDPA style shooting strive to address these issues?

only if you are wearing your "shoot me first" vest and refuse to drop a mag on the ground.

 

[HICKMAN]

they shoot back in IDPA?

are marines getting shot at by other marines before they go downrange?

Ya know, because they can't get ready for combat without being shot at, right?

 

[the1kidd03]

are marines getting shot at by other marines before they go downrange?

Ya know, because they can't get ready for combat without being shot at, right?

indeed...we live off blood

I wonder how many posts down the road this will spark the same old debate

wager?

 

[rhino]

I agree with Jackson. Some valuable lessons can be learned from the video, they just aren't the lessons ABC intended to help teach.

The point about no-win scenarios is a good one. What they did were essentially staged executions of specific individuals. Such actions are almost impossible to defend against in that situation. Of course, there are and will continue to be no-win situations in real life too, but they do not comprise the entire spectrum of possibilities. We need to prepare for those situations where atttitude, skills, and decisive action can make a difference. And I'd say that the more one works on attitude, skills, etc., the greater the percentage of incidents are survivable.

It would be interesting to see how many super highly trained police officers (as mentioned in the video) could survive the exact same enounter. In fact, it would be more interesting to see how the featured experts would fare in an execution scenario. They're probably experienced enough to cheat by trying to be constantly ready until something happens, but you can't maintain that level all the time.

 

[cobber]

It would be interesting to see how many super highly trained police officers (as mentioned in the video) could survive the exact same enounter. In fact, it would be more interesting to see how the featured experts would fare in an execution scenario. They're probably experienced enough to cheat by trying to be constantly ready until something happens, but you can't maintain that level all the time.

All things considered, the students in the video actually did well, IMHO.

They thought it was a real shooting situation, and engaged the attacker. That was quite commendable. Even if they did not prevail, they went down fighting. Against an untrained and unprepared attacker, who knows what might have happened?

 

[the1kidd03]

All things considered, the students in the video actually did well, IMHO.

They thought it was a real shooting situation, and engaged the attacker. That was quite commendable. Even if they did not prevail, they went down fighting. Against an untrained and unprepared attacker, who knows what might have happened?

I thought it was funny how the kid with the most firearms experience seemed to FAIL, while the girl with relatively no experience performed the best.

 

[Davis0023]

More liberal anti-gun baisness. I cant say I am for all out carry on a campus, but I think certian people should have the ability. Such as former police that are now teachers. Former spec-op that are now teachers( yes I had one), etc ,etc. Current officers( they can but some dont because of the possible hassle). And of course the well "trained" documented trained, not the I grew up on a farm or I'm in the guard. I mean the throughly trained citizen in real urban sitautions such as this.

But who has that training? The guy who wants to carry on a campus is who! Who can afford it? It will be cheaper than the wrongful death lawsuit from hitting the wrong person at the wrong time for the wrong reason!

I could go on but why.. I believe my point is made, imo.

 

[Caleb]

This...

You mean by primarily picking students who had no interest in carrying before, putting them in the middle of the room, letting them falsly believe they are still in the set-up phase of the training/scenario, and then putting them against firearms instructors who seem to know where in the room they are sitting and went right for them as soon as they stood up? I agree. The methods were clearly biased.

However, some of the other issues they discuss such as tunnel vision, loss of some fine motor skills, need to practice and refine draw stroke, and training to observe and implement Rule 4 (target foreground and background) are real problems and need to be incorporated in to training.

...and this!

But the video barely mentions that the students weren't nearly as well trained (read not trained at all) as the officers staging the demonstration. So the video proved nothing.


This video has been posted and dissected twice before in the last year. Not to say it's not still a farce.

 

[bwframe]

...I cant say I am for all out carry on a campus, but I think certian people should have the ability...

Why is campus any different than any other crowded place where there might be LTCH holders?
Mickey D's
Walmart
Any mall
Any downtown

 

[tv1217]

A better experiment would have been to send use one of the students as the shooter, without disclosing who the CCer is. Do it multiple times, maybe randomize and do a few without any CCers, a few with a single CCer, and a few with multiple CCers. I'd bet the results would be very different.