What do to about bad OC?

[ProLibertate]

I don't quite understand what your issue is with OC? Like you said, in your experience OCers abide by the law. I still have yet to hear a single coherent argument defending the "OC is retarded" fallacy.

The reason I did not delve further into my opinion of OC is because it was not the topic at hand. I didn't feel the need to justify my opinion at the time. I do support the right to open carry. I already said that in plain English.
I did offer partial clarification by adding the words "socially" and "tactically" before retarded.
I also don't like the Westboro Baptist Church protesting military funerals either, but I do support the First Amendment. As a matter of fact, I have taken two oaths to defend the Constitution; One as a Marine, and once again as a police officer.

But, since it seems I've been backed into a corner here, here goes...
Open carry makes absolutely NO sense tactically. None.
If you visibly display a weapon, you automatically forfeit the ability to choose a time and place of involvement. You lose your ability to "fade into the background" and disengage.
With OC, you are advertising that you have a gun, and therefore by implication that you will involve yourself in a violent situation should one arise. This may not seem like a bad thing until you consider two things:
1) If you are outgunned from the beginning, tough sh*t... You are involved now whether you wanted to be or not.
2) Contrary to popular belief, the mere sight of your sidearm does not strike terror into the hearts of criminals everywhere...
As a matter of fact, Suicide by Armed Citizen is on the rise. Another INGO member just found out last night the hard way that some people simply don't back down to a gun. It either doesn't frighten them or they have nothing to lose.
Those are the basic reasons I feel OC is running-with-scissors-blindfolded retarded.
Now you've heard a logical argument against OC. Just once, I would like to hear a logical argument FOR open carry besides, "It's my right!"

I don't dispute your right. I never have. In summary, I just feel it makes no sense to give up the tactical advantage of surprise and the ability to disengaged in less than ideal circumstances just to prove a point and show the world your piece.

For the record, I have been in a gun fight right here in Indy in May of 2006. It was at a Village Pantry at 71st and Georgetown. The robber entered the store with his gun in hand- no mask. He completely ignored my presence until I went for my [concealed] sidearm, at which time he opened fire. He missed, I didn't. Had he seen my gun when he first walked in, before I had seen him, there is no doubt in my mind I would not be typing this right now.
You cannot convince me OC is wise. Nobody can watch their 360 24/7. Period.
Sorry for the long post.

 

[Joe Williams]

snip

For the record, I have been in a gun fight right here in Indy in May of 2006. It was at a Village Pantry at 71st and Georgetown. The robber entered the store with his gun in hand- no mask. He completely ignored my presence until I went for my [concealed] sidearm, at which time he opened fire. He missed, I didn't. Had he seen my gun when he first walked in, before I had seen him, there is no doubt in my mind I would not be typing this right now.
snip.

Had you not had your firearm concealed, making it slower and harder to get to, he may have never had the chance to get that first shot off. You were lucky, sadly you weren't smart enough to learn your lesson. Hopefully, you'll stay lucky, since you are choosing to continue to carry in a manner that experience should have taught you is tactically unsound. Since he was ignoring you, how would he have seen your gun?

Had he seen your gun, what makes you think he would have even entered the store? There are documented instances of armed robbers choosing to discontinue a robbery. It's at least as likely that you could have prevented the danger to everybody around you with your gunfight had you chosen a more sound method of carry.

 

[ProLibertate]

Had you not had your firearm concealed, making it slower and harder to get to, he may have never had the chance to get that first shot off. You were lucky, sadly you weren't smart enough to learn your lesson. Hopefully, you'll stay lucky, since you are choosing to continue to carry in a manner that experience should have taught you is tactically unsound. Since he was ignoring you, how would he have seen your gun?

Had he seen your gun, what makes you think he would have even entered the store? There are documented instances of armed robbers choosing to discontinue a robbery. It's at least as likely that you could have prevented the danger to everybody around you with your gunfight had you chosen a more sound method of carry.

A gun out of the holster at the ready is ALWAYS faster than a holstered weapon. Concealed or not. He had the jump on me. Plain and simple. He would have had the jump on you too, unless you make it a habit of walking around with a gun in your hand.
He would not have seen my gun if I hadn't gone for it. That is the point. If he had seen your gun, he would likely have shot you before you even knew he was there.
I was already in the store. He couldn't see me from outside the store- armed or not. He entered unmasked, high on crack, with a gun in his hand, and a determination to rob the store and kill anyone in his way. He continued to fire until after he had been hit a total of 5 times. Four in the chest and one in the throat. He was firing the entire time until the final shot.
It was the single scariest moment of my life. When I fought in Iraq, we had an offensive mindset. Every time we went through a doorway, we know there was a high likelyhood that we would have to pull the trigger on the other side. We were ready for it.
It is completely different in a real world defensive scenario. You are off-guard, no matter how ready you may feel. You are likely not near adequate cover and/or concealment. Your fine motor skills go to hell in a handbasket because of the adrenaline your brain just dumped into your bloodstream.
I can tell from your questions and silly "what-if"s that you've never been in a gun fight. It is nothing like you picture it. Nothing.
But since you've already decided that OC is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and all of us concealed carriers (even those of us with more real world experience than you) are mouth breathing knuckle dragging morons, then nothing I try to teach you through lessons learned will sink in.
Please, continue to exercise your right to show off your gun to the whole world and then pat yourself on the back in the "Where I OC'd today" thread. We're all impressed.

 

[patience0830]

hmmm

now that's a goofy qoute

I think you spelled it wrong. fixed it 4u.

 

[Joe Williams]

snip

I can tell from your questions and silly "what-if"s that you've never been in a gun fight.snip.

Wrong, hero. Now, given your ignorance and inability to distinguish reality on this subject, why are we to lend credence to anything else you have to say?

JOC.... why did you choose to engage in a gunfight, since he had the drop on you?

Course, I reckon mistakes should be expected, since it sounds like the first time you've been robbed. Me? Been robbed quite a few times.

 

[ProLibertate]

Wrong, hero. Now, given your ignorance and inability to distinguish reality on this subject, why are we to lend credence to anything else you have to say?

Did you even read what I wrote, or just immediately start attacking me when you thought I was attempting to disrupt your precious right to open carry?

 

[Joe Williams]

Did you even read what I wrote, or just immediately start attacking me when you thought I was attempting to disrupt your precious right to open carry?

You said you weren't trying to disrupt them, so why would I think you are?

Of course I read what you wrote. I think it is silly, unfounded in fact, and condescending. Then, you chose to get rather snottily personal, and made an even more ignorant statement about what I have or haven't done, a rather dense thing to do since you don't know me. I chose to respond to you and your baseless little theories using the same tone you are, and have chosen to point out that you are prone to making judgements with little basis to make them, and without regard to fact. Which renders your opinions somewhat suspect.

 

[patience0830]

more popcorn please

Personally I find it in bad taste when someone wears sandals and jeans. Irregardless of open carry.

Spelling police checking in. I think your fauspax is really a faux pas. If I recall my high school french correctly.

I think our OP has survived his trial by fire and is wiser in the ways of INGO at this juncture. I'm of the opinion that his reaction of upping his SA and coming here for advice was a fair choice. I do think that we could educate him without the abuse though. Whacko Fundamentalists of the Islamic, Christian, or Gun owning types are to be watched carefully and ignored at your own peril.

 

[printcraft]

 

[jbombelli]

 

[Bill of Rights]

The reason I did not delve further into my opinion of OC is because it was not the topic at hand. I didn't feel the need to justify my opinion at the time. I do support the right to open carry. I already said that in plain English.
I did offer partial clarification by adding the words "socially" and "tactically" before retarded.
I also don't like the Westboro Baptist Church protesting military funerals either, but I do support the First Amendment. As a matter of fact, I have taken two oaths to defend the Constitution; One as a Marine, and once again as a police officer.

But, since it seems I've been backed into a corner here, here goes...
Open carry makes absolutely NO sense tactically. None.
If you visibly display a weapon, you automatically forfeit the ability to choose a time and place of involvement. You lose your ability to "fade into the background" and disengage.
With OC, you are advertising that you have a gun, and therefore by implication that you will involve yourself in a violent situation should one arise. This may not seem like a bad thing until you consider two things:
1) If you are outgunned from the beginning, tough sh*t... You are involved now whether you wanted to be or not.
2) Contrary to popular belief, the mere sight of your sidearm does not strike terror into the hearts of criminals everywhere...
As a matter of fact, Suicide by Armed Citizen is on the rise. Another INGO member just found out last night the hard way that some people simply don't back down to a gun. It either doesn't frighten them or they have nothing to lose.
Those are the basic reasons I feel OC is running-with-scissors-blindfolded retarded.
Now you've heard a logical argument against OC. Just once, I would like to hear a logical argument FOR open carry besides, "It's my right!"

I don't dispute your right. I never have. In summary, I just feel it makes no sense to give up the tactical advantage of surprise and the ability to disengaged in less than ideal circumstances just to prove a point and show the world your piece.

For the record, I have been in a gun fight right here in Indy in May of 2006. It was at a Village Pantry at 71st and Georgetown. The robber entered the store with his gun in hand- no mask. He completely ignored my presence until I went for my [concealed] sidearm, at which time he opened fire. He missed, I didn't. Had he seen my gun when he first walked in, before I had seen him, there is no doubt in my mind I would not be typing this right now.
You cannot convince me OC is wise. Nobody can watch their 360 24/7. Period.
Sorry for the long post.

Thank you for your service and your reply. I have finally seen a valid reason for me to reconsider open carrying. I have not done so to date in part because I don't have a retention holster that I consider a necessity to do so, but I do support peoples' right to make the choice for themselves. My choice is not to do so because I don't want to be put in the position of punching any innocent person's ticket for the ride to their next life. Suicide by cop is bad enough; they have a series of procedures and provisions to help a fellow officer through the mental and legal battles s/he will face as a result of shooting someone who was innocent of any crime and only wanted to use them as a tool to do what the person was not brave enough to do for themselves.

I do disagree with your point about OC making no tactical sense; if that was true, you would not have had (or currently have) a hip holster as part of your uniform as a police officer. That said, however, I defend your right to say or think whatever you want. I appreciate that even though you don't agree with peoples' choices, you still respect and defend them.

Joe: Chill out, man. You're alienating someone who is defending your rights. Everyone doesn't have to agree. This man is doing something I've never seen you do: He is defending something with which he does not agree but agrees should be your own, individual choice.

Positive rep inbound, ProLibertate, and Welcome to INGO.

Semper Fi!

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Jack Ryan]

...
I do disagree with your point about OC making no tactical sense; if that was true, you would not have had (or currently have) a hip holster as part of your uniform as a police officer. ....

I think any CC tactical advantage for uniformed police officers is pretty much lost when they put on the blue uniform, hat, badge, black batman belt, crackling radio, and jack boots.

What possible advantage could there be to hiding their gun on their ankle at that point?

 

[PatriotPride]

I think any CC tactical advantage for uniformed police officers is pretty much lost when they put on the blue uniform, hat, badge, black batman belt, crackling radio, and jack boots.

What possible advantage could there be to hiding their gun on their ankle at that point?

Same thing as a citizen. Anyone with 1/2 a brain considers any person they see armed. I suppose people's levels of SA varies

 

[ATM]

...Just once, I would like to hear a logical argument FOR open carry besides, "It's my right!"

Here you go: https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...lf_defense/71996-the_open_carry_argument.html

...I just feel it makes no sense to give up the tactical advantage of surprise...
...Had he seen my gun when he first walked in, before I had seen him, there is no doubt in my mind I would not be typing this right now.

Here you go: https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...lf_defense/37307-common_oc_cc_threadjack.html

You cannot convince me OC is wise.

Nor do I need to. How often are non-LEO OCers attacked? How about CCers? Here's a hint: one of those two groups is attacked with exactly the same regularity as the unarmed - the other group, far less.

However, I appreciate your civility, service and your support of our rights.

It's fine to disagree.

 

[amhenry]

to GlockednLocked

Of course you're right: if I had been wearing a wifebeater while drinking my beer in the front yard, I wouldn't have been at all fazed by the man in the wifebeater walking past me with a gun on his hip. I was just overdressed for the occasion. Mostly I was afraid that he'd try to steal my belt [the OCer had his holster clipped to a belt loop on his jeans.]

There are a couple of comments that were made that I wanted to touch on briefly.

1. The assertion that a gun needn't attract any more attention that a wallet, cell phone, etc-- do most of you agree or disagree?

2. OC commits you to action in a way that CC doesn't. Yes or no?

3. Any reasonable person considers everyone around them to be armed. Is that your expectation when you're out in public?

peace
Andrew

 

[Integraholic]

Original question answer : I would do nothing. Just as you should. Why would you call police if no crimes are being committed? Basically you're just profiling. If he pulls his gun and starts shooting, pull yours and shoot back. Cops can then be called. The end.

 

[sj kahr k40]

to GlockednLocked

Of course you're right: if I had been wearing a wifebeater while drinking my beer in the front yard, I wouldn't have been at all fazed by the man in the wifebeater walking past me with a gun on his hip. I was just overdressed for the occasion. Mostly I was afraid that he'd try to steal my belt [the OCer had his holster clipped to a belt loop on his jeans.]

There are a couple of comments that were made that I wanted to touch on briefly.

1. The assertion that a gun needn't attract any more attention that a wallet, cell phone, etc-- do most of you agree or disagree?

2. OC commits you to action in a way that CC doesn't. Yes or no?

3. Any reasonable person considers everyone around them to be armed. Is that your expectation when you're out in public?

peace
Andrew

Here are my answers to your questions

1. Disagree, a gun draws my attn more than a cell phone etc.

2. No, I'm not required to act whether I'm OCing, CCing or NCing

3. I do assume everyone around me is carrying a weapon, not necessarily a gun but lots of things can be used as a weapon

 

[Roadie]

(snipped for ignorance sake)

Yeah, didn't read all of the thread, so, uhm, carry on...

 

[amhenry]

I should clarify #2.

I don't mean that OC obligates you to act in a moral or legal sense, but that once your gun is visible, others can react to it in a way that forces your hand.

I read the long article/post on "The Open Carry Argument" that was linked above, and I understand the rationale behind both sides of the argument. I'm still not convinced, but was a worthwhile read.

 

[Bill of Rights]

to GlockednLocked

Of course you're right: if I had been wearing a wifebeater while drinking my beer in the front yard, I wouldn't have been at all fazed by the man in the wifebeater walking past me with a gun on his hip. I was just overdressed for the occasion. Mostly I was afraid that he'd try to steal my belt [the OCer had his holster clipped to a belt loop on his jeans.]

There are a couple of comments that were made that I wanted to touch on briefly.

1. The assertion that a gun needn't attract any more attention that a wallet, cell phone, etc-- do most of you agree or disagree?

2. OC commits you to action in a way that CC doesn't. Yes or no?

3. Any reasonable person considers everyone around them to be armed. Is that your expectation when you're out in public?

peace
Andrew

Fair questions.

If I see an OC pistol, I make note of it and it's owner. Not because I suspect pending criminal activity, just because I notice, kinda like two guys riding motorcycles... they may have never seen each other before and probably will never see each other again, but they likely will nod, wave, or in some way acknowledge each other.

OC commits you to act in a way CC doesn't? Yes, IF the BG notices you and takes action. Yes, IF someone picks a fight. You can't afford to allow that pistol to be taken if you are overcome in a fight, so you bear a responsibility to let far more things roll like water off a duck's back. Yes, OC commits you to act in a way that does not portray gun owners as violent knuckle-draggers looking for an excuse to fill someone full of lead. Like it or not, the visible presence of your firearm makes you an ambassador for our community and it is up to you in what light we are all seen, as reflected by your actions.

Do I consider all around me armed? Statistically, probably not, but yes, I do. Anyone could be a threat, or not. The late Col. Cooper described it as "Condition Yellow", where you're calmly, passively aware of who and what is around you. You need take no action, you're simply paying attention to your surroundings. This is where you were in the story you related, when the young men were first seen. You escalated to Orange, noting a potential threat and watched it until the potential threat was no more, then de-escalated to Yellow again.

Anyone has the potential to be a threat. Most people are not. The one who is but looks like he is not is the one of whom you need to be careful, but you won't know who he is until he reveals himself. If you're not ready, you're screwed.

I think you were right to be cautious, not because of his gun but because something caught your attention. Listen to your gut. It's not likely to steer you wrong. Thanks for your question.

Oh... and belatedly... to !

Blessings,
Bill