When the four rules are not enough or "squib happens"..........

[Leadeye]

Had a squib once lodge a wad cutter right in the throat of a revolver. That was different, having to beat the bullet back into the case with a dowel just to unlock the cylinder.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Had a squib once lodge a wad cutter right in the throat of a revolver. That was different, having to beat the bullet back into the case with a dowel just to unlock the cylinder.

Dowel and dead blow hammer is the ticket, as I recently learned.

 

[CountryBoy19]

No, that's not how Cooper presented them. If I were you, I would go back and review that lecture.

Don't take anything here personal. Just talking about guns.

Jeff presented the 4 rules in numerous "slightly different" texts, which one are you referring to?

Just one example, from Cooper's commentaries Volume 6, Number 2, rule 1

ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADEDThe only exception to this occurs when one has a weapon in his hands and he has personally unloaded it for checking. As soon as he puts it down, Rule 1 applies again.

I highlighted the important part because I'm sure you'll glaze right over it if I didn't point it out; it's contrary to your position and you can't possibly be wrong... It would be inconvenient for you acknowledge that Cooper himself allowed exceptions.

FWIW, I have also seen in one of Cooper's commentaries that Rule 2 has an exception for guns that aren't being handled which is a bit more commonly recognized than the above. Yet you also refused to acknowledge the fact that Cooper allowed exceptions based on common sense and logic.

Let me ask you this, do you acknowledge that rule 2 has an exception to only be applicable to gun that are being handled? If I recall your position correctly, you do not, and you claim that you NEVER let any gun, whether it's being handled or not point at any human. Is that correct?

 

[Leadeye]

Dowel and dead blow hammer is the ticket, as I recently learned.

I took the grips off the revolver and put the frame in a padded vice, was afraid the wadcutter would snag rather than go back in the case. Not an experience I want to repeat.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Jeff presented the 4 rules in numerous "slightly different" texts, which one are you referring to?

I made reference to the video. It is the same as his lectures at Gunsite. In fact it is filmed at Gunsite.

I highlighted the important part because I'm sure you'll glaze right over it if I didn't point it out; it's contrary to your position and you can't possibly be wrong... It would be inconvenient for you acknowledge that Cooper himself allowed exceptions.

What? I'm the one that brought up Cooper and told you to watch the video on his lecture.

Let me ask you this, do you acknowledge that rule 2 has an exception to only be applicable to gun that are being handled?

It is a crime to point guns at people. Don't do that.

Look, I understand people want a justification for doing stupid crap with guns. There are no justifications for being foolish.

If you have to work on a gun, then follow Cooper's rules, that means unloading it and doing such things as removing the bolt from the weapon before pointing the gun at your face (which people seem obsessed with).

 

[CountryBoy19]

I made reference to the video. It is the same as his lectures at Gunsite. In fact it is filmed at Gunsite.

So you're only willing to accept Cooper's rules as gospel as they were presented in a specific format at a specific time & place but are unwilling to accept them as he presented them at another point?

What? I'm the one that brought up Cooper and told you to watch the video on his lecture.

I don't need to watch the video again, the point has been made. You relentlessly point to Cooper as the God of 4 Rules yet are unwilling to accept the fact that even he allowed exceptions; he even called them exceptions. Yet when that matter is shown to you, you just can't deal with that fact so you dodge it and pretend it doesn't exist. That's laughable.

Look, I understand people want a justification for doing stupid crap with guns. There are no justifications for being foolish.

I'm not looking for justification for anything. Just pointing out that you're a hypocrite.

I knew you wouldn't answer the question the first time so I'll try again. Do you think rule 2 applies to all guns handled or not? Or only to guns that are being handled?

If you have to work on a gun, then follow Cooper's rules, that means unloading it and doing such things as removing the bolt from the weapon before pointing the gun at your face (which people seem obsessed with).

Which version of Cooper's rules should I follow?

And if I'm reading this right it appears you now accept that making a gun inoperable is a permissible exception to allowing the gun to point at your body?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

So you're only willing to accept Cooper's rules as gospel as they were presented in a specific format at a specific time & place but are unwilling to accept them as he presented them at another point?

Cooper originally had one rule at API, "All guns are always loaded".

It did not work as the coonfingering and stupid still ran amuck as far fewer people have unintentionally shot themselves as have cut themselves. Thus, the Four Rules were born.

Cooper had one version of the Four Rules, circa 1976 at API, they did not change.

I don't need to watch the video again, the point has been made.

I disagree, you do need to.

You relentlessly point to Cooper as the God of 4 Rules yet are unwilling to accept the fact that even he allowed exceptions;

The Four Rules include the exception to Rule 1 that Cooper lectured upon. It still does not excuse sloppy or criminal behavior such as pointing unloading guns at others.

If you want to work on a firearm, unload it, disable it (e.g. remove the bolt or remove the cylinder, inter alia), and then you can release your inner gun nut and wave it all about yourself as some so desire.

Yet when that matter is shown to you, you just can't deal with that fact so you dodge it and pretend it doesn't exist. That's laughable.

What are you attempting to show me?

You want to wave guns around and are upset when someone tells you that it is unwise to do so?

Tell me what you are attempting to show me.

'm not looking for justification for anything. Just pointing out that you're a hypocrite.

I am a hypocrite for telling INGO that guns are dangerous and they should be careful and that the best way to avoid harm to one's self or others is to follow the Four Rules?

You may want to consider another word. I acknowledge that some do not like to be reminded of their careless/dangerous behaviour with firearms. Got it.

However, it is within the best interest of the gun culture that we control ourselves or others will control us. The Four Rules provide the best model for optimal behaviour.

Which version of Cooper's rules should I follow?

And if I'm reading this right it appears you now accept that making a gun inoperable is a permissible exception to allowing the gun to point at your body?

There is only one version. Follow that one.

If one desires to work on a firearm, I would: unload it, disable it as much as one can, and not point it at oneself as the Four Rules are habituation not just an intellectual exercise.

The OP did nothing unsafe and I have no idea why you are upset.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

If you have to work on a gun, then follow Cooper's rules, that means unloading it and doing such things as removing the bolt from the weapon before pointing the gun at your face (which people seem obsessed with).

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...erly-holstered-handgun-considered-safe-4.html

Interesting that you argued so hard and with such derision against that very concept, yet now it's just a matter of fact that it's safe to do so. You've got some good information, but you get to tied up in being right that your delivery sucks and you become more concerned with being right than with presenting relevant information. I'd be happy to discuss it in person and see if your Internet persona matches your real life persona. Mine does, only with a lot more cursing. I like cursing. It's like my paint and the world is my canvas. I'll be in Indiucky's shop Friday, and he really likes you so maybe stop in....which also brings us back to the topic here. Indiucky did something cool with a cool gun and he runs a shop (museum) that has Dr. Pepper. Go there.

 

[CountryBoy19]

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...erly-holstered-handgun-considered-safe-4.html

Interesting that you argued so hard and with such derision against that very concept, yet now it's just a matter of fact that it's safe to do so. You've got some good information, but you get to tied up in being right that your delivery sucks and you become more concerned with being right than with presenting relevant information. I'd be happy to discuss it in person and see if your Internet persona matches your real life persona. Mine does, only with a lot more cursing. I like cursing. It's like my paint and the world is my canvas. I'll be in Indiucky's shop Friday, and he really likes you so maybe stop in....which also brings us back to the topic here. Indiucky did something cool with a cool gun and he runs a shop (museum) that has Dr. Pepper. Go there.

Thanks BBI, I don't have to look that one up... the point was made for me, no need to respond to Kirk's above "answer without answering anything".

 

[HoughMade]

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Interesting that you argued so hard and with such derision against that very concept, yet now it's just a matter of fact that it's safe to do so.

Most assuredly a firearm in pieces for service or cleaning is not similarly situated to a firearm in a holster.

If one needs to clean a firearm (which I hear happens) or service it, disassemble it and work on it. Don't get in the habit--with a firearm, with a rubber gun, with a nail gun--of pointing it at yourself as getting shot sucks. Many are blase about firearm discipline as they have not been shot or seen the aftermath of setting oneself on fire. If they could feel the pain of being shot, they would be more active in developing proper habits.

I'll be in Indiucky's shop Friday, and he really likes you so maybe stop in....which also brings us back to the topic here. Indiucky did something cool with a cool gun and he runs a shop (museum) that has Dr. Pepper. Go there.

If the government runs away from me on the 19th, I intend to. I hope he has Ale 8 too.

You've got some good information, but you get to tied up in being right that your delivery sucks and you become more concerned with being right than with presenting relevant information.

That's my own fault. INGO, like most males, is literal. I need to start using footnotes or endnotes or whatever is in my heart.

There are guns here. Putting it in hard can save a life. One cannot take a bullet back. Being sloppy and complacent will kill our liberties and our bodies.

I know, it sucks that we can be judged by the sloppy gun handling of others. It's not fair, I get it. But we discipline ourselves or others are waiting to do it for us. Our discipline should be the Four Rules.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Most assuredly a firearm in pieces for service or cleaning is not similarly situated to a firearm in a holster.

I'm thinking you didn't go back and actually read it. Do so and tell me you didn't argue against this:

4) Apply all rules to any firearm mechanically able to fire, regardless of loaded/unloaded status...

as being "not definitive enough".

That's my own fault. INGO, like most males, is literal. I need to start using footnotes or endnotes or whatever is in my heart.

Sure. Or not imply people who disagree with you are idiots, have "daddy issues", or whatever derision you feel will deflect away from the argument at the moment. Being snide and over generalizing has turned a lot of folks here against you. If your message is so important, perhaps package it in a way that doesn't turn people off. Frankly, your online tone in the thread I linked is one reason I don't generally bother to interact with you any longer. It's off putting. I'm willing to bet you'd be a bit more polite in person. We'll either get along famously or we'll be free to discuss things in ways that would get us banned here. One way to find out. I expect I'll be there at roughly noon. If Indiucky is up for it, I'll buy pizza for the shop.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I'm thinking you didn't go back and actually read it. Do so and tell me you didn't argue against this:



as being "not definitive enough".



Sure. Or not imply people who disagree with you are idiots, have "daddy issues", or whatever derision you feel will deflect away from the argument at the moment. Being snide and over generalizing has turned a lot of folks here against you. If your message is so important, perhaps package it in a way that doesn't turn people off. Frankly, your online tone in the thread I linked is one reason I don't generally bother to interact with you any longer. It's off putting. I'm willing to bet you'd be a bit more polite in person. We'll either get along famously or we'll be free to discuss things in ways that would get us banned here. One way to find out. I expect I'll be there at roughly noon. If Indiucky is up for it, I'll buy pizza for the shop.

You said Friday, he said the 19th. I don't think there'll be a love connection under those parameters.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

You said Friday, he said the 19th. I don't think there'll be a love connection under those parameters.

I'm figuring he means if the 19th allows he'll do so on the 20th, but lawyers speak a different language so who knows. Anyway, I'll be there this Friday regardless. Not sure what my work schedule is for the 20th of next month.

 

[BogWalker]

Hey, uh, I heard Ale-8-One up thread. Where is this magical shop of indiucky's? I've only seen ale-8-one in, well, Kentucky.


And I think it might help to retrospect, are our problems with the four rules or Kirk personally? I don't want to see anybody get the hammer arguing over semantics.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Hey, uh, I heard Ale-8-One up thread. Where is this magical shop of indiucky's? I've only seen ale-8-one in, well, Kentucky.


And I think it might help to retrospect, are our problems with the four rules or Kirk personally? I don't want to see anybody get the hammer arguing over semantics.

His shop is in Clarksville, so basically Kentucky.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/F...ved=0ahUKEwju1uD9jrLMAhWKm4MKHYDGAy8Q_BIIcDAK

There's an existing thread on the 4 rules and my opinion is laid out there. No need to rehash it here.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I'm figuring he means if the 19th allows he'll do so on the 20th, but lawyers speak a different language so who knows. Anyway, I'll be there this Friday regardless. Not sure what my work schedule is for the 20th of next month.

True dat...there's room for interpretation there, for sure.

If you guys plan something for a Monday or Tuesday, I'll buy the beer.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I'm thinking you didn't go back and actually read it. Do so and tell me you didn't argue against this:

4) Apply all rules to any firearm mechanically able to fire, regardless of loaded/unloaded status...


as being "not definitive enough".

Nothing wrong with that. Although I would argue that they should be applied to any "gun shaped object" in order to ingrain habituation.

As well, pointing a firearm, even with the bolt removed, at another human being is a crime. I just saw a segment on Fox59 while folding laundry last night on IMPD's efforts to combat "gun violence". Let's follow the Four Rules, even when the gun is unloaded and the bolt is removed, in order to combat gun violence.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I'm figuring he means if the 19th allows he'll do so on the 20th, but lawyers speak a different language so who knows. Anyway, I'll be there this Friday regardless. Not sure what my work schedule is for the 20th of next month.

I am allowed to leave the office next on May 19th, potentially (assuming this spice case does not go), when I go to Louisville. I intend to swing by Clarksville on the way down.

 

[VERT]

Does somebody have a link to the definitive explanation of the 4 rules as presented by Col. Cooper? I have seen several different videos with the Col., have heard the rules explained by those directly influenced by the Col., have read many discussions and written explainations, I even signed up for GunSite later this summer mainly to hear the lectures. As a student I enjoy learning the history and roots if you will of those that influenced the firearms culture. So which 4 rules video/lecture is canon?