When to shoot

[mwmccormick]

Have been thinking about this since I got my license. Can/ should I, if in a situation, draw my weapon as a deterrent only firing if the threat continues? If I do shoot do I shoot to kill or incapacitate? Also I have read somewhere that if one is involved in a self defensive shooting that you will never see your gun again. Myth?

 

[LPMan59]

shoot when you have to. shoot to stop the threat.

 

[Farmerjon]

I will only draw my gun if I feel my life or someone else's life is in danger. If the threat continues, I will shoot to kill as that is my recourse in defending myself or someone else. It ain't the movies, real life is scary. If I would ever have to kill/shoot someone, seeing my gun again will probably be very low on the list of my worries.

 

[ccochran3]

My theory is, if i pull my gun out, it is already past the point I am going to have to shoot it. Until that point, do everything necessary to prevent the gun from being drawn. Life endangering events to myself, or my family, only.

 

[indyjoe]

My theory is, if i pull my gun out, it is already past the point I am going to have to shoot it. Until that point, do everything necessary to prevent the gun from being drawn. Life endangering events to myself, or my family, only.

I don't believe that drawing requires you to shoot. In my previous encounters, I have not drawn at times that today I would draw. (15-20 feet distance with a knife in the hand.) The outcome of not shooting would probably still be the same. However, when I am in a situation that lethal force is displayed and intent conveyed, I should be drawing. If the threat backs down, that is fine. However, if it turns bad, those 1-2 seconds could be deciding in the outcome.

 

[mwmccormick]

I guess that the fact is, is that no one really knows until ( hopefully not) the situation presents itself. I'm probably going through a normal newly licensed thought process that many experience when they make the decision to carry.

 

[esrice]

I guess that fact is, is that no one really nows until ( hopefully not) the situation presents itself.

The better position is to already know what you'd do in various situations, so that you spend less time trying to decide when moments count.

The first step in this process will be getting some professional training from a reputable instructor/school. At first you'll concentrate mostly on how to run the gun. Later look for a school that focuses on a proper fighting mindset.

The evolution of carrying a gun is a unique and interesting process, good luck and enjoy!

 

[cyberwild360]

I have showed my gun (did not pull from holster) once. A guy was following making verbal threats in downtown Indy. I was with my wife and kept following us he kept making comments about her and him and was getting closer. we ignored him the first several hundred feet but when he got too close, I lifted my shirt and showed him my holster, he made another comment and then left.

If I pull, it's to kill.

 

[eldirector]

I've never had to draw, but believe I am prepared to. My thoughts:
- draw only if there is no other option
- draw only to fire
- fire into the center of mass (or whatever is available) until the threat is over.

Don't shoot to injure. This isn't a time to place nice. If you or yours is in danger of serious bodily harm, then remove the threat as quickly and decisively as possible. Remember, you are not shooting to kill. You are shooting to end the threat. Dead, incapacitated, surrendering, and fleeing the scene are all acceptable ends.

If they happen to flee or surrender after I draw but before I get a shot off, then the threat is over and no shots fired. This is the best post-draw situation.

Don't worry about your gun. If it is a good shoot, you will either keep it or get it back shortly.

Man, I hope it NEVER gets this far, but at least I am prepared.

 

[mwmccormick]

The better position is to already know what you'd do in various situations, so that you spend less time trying to decide when moments count.

You're absolutely correct. I was actually considering looking for some courses. I realized being militarily trained is not at all the same as carrying in the civilian world, plus I've been out since '93 and just gotten into guns more in the past two years. I really have no experience defensively carrying handguns.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[indyjoe]

These always break into a couple camps: 1) If I draw, I will be killing someone. 2) I will only draw when it is time to shoot, but no commitment on killing someone. 3) I'll draw when I fell like I am in danger, possibly as a deterrent, and shoot if needed.

I'm in camp 3. I think stating that if I draw, someone is going to die, on a public forum is not a great thing should you be involved in a self defense shooting and are on trial. If the perp dropped the knife and then you shot him, this public record could have bad consequences.

The are times that I have displayed my drawn firearm that ended up in NOT having to shoot someone, where if I had waited would have put me into the timing that shooting them was the only option.

Despite all the talk about a thug being better dead and out of society, I am going to avoid that if possible. I have never killed another human, so I have no idea what mental effects I would suffer because of it. If drawing early allows me to not find out, I'm OK with that.

When I draw, I fully expect to fire. However, if the situation quickly reverses itself (which it has in the past), I'm not pulling that trigger.

 

[eldirector]

I'm with you, indyjoe, at least for the most part. As in my post above, I try to be very careful with language when talking to folks about self-defense shooting. I am ABSOLUTELY NOT shooting to kill anyone. Shooting to kill is too close to pre-meditation for me. I am only shooting to end the threat. The act of un-holstering may be enough, and thank God if it is. However, I am not going to stop and waste time thinking about it. If the BG forces me to commit, I intend to follow through. How far is up to the BG.

If you want to shoot to kill, join the armed services or a SWAT team. I'm shooting to live.

One variable I didn't think about: I tend to OC. No need to "show" anyone that I am armed. It is plainly visible, and pretty obvious when I set my hand on the grip.

Of course, all of this is just armchair quarterbacking! I need to take some force-on-force training to see how I really would react.

 

[esrice]

1) If I draw, I will be killing someone.

IMO this camp is severely limiting themselves, and not giving themselves the benefit of thinking while fighting.

Fights, and especially gunfights, are dynamic and fluid situations. If you've already made up your mind that if you pull the gun you pull the trigger, and if you train that way, you leave yourself no other way to deal with that fluid situation, which could change dramatically at any moment.

Think, fight, do what's necessary to win.

 

[kludge]

The question is answered by applying the "reasonable man" test. All justifiable use of force must be reasonable or it is not legal.

If a threat of force involves drawing or use of a firearm, then it could be Class C Felony Intimidation charge. Pointing a loaded firearm is a Class D felony.

Indiana Code 35-45-2

In most SD scenarios the time to make that determination is very short. If you have time to think about whether or not you need to draw, you should already be moving toward concealment/cover or taking other evasive action. Distance is your friend.

Furthermore, claiming self defense is a affirmative defense. Basically you admit to breaking the law, and if prosecuted it is on you and your lawyer to prove that it was justified under the circumstances.

And yes, going through scenarios is 100% normal process. In fact there are many training classes that revolve around use force scenarios.

Don't worry about your gun.

And don't carry a gun you can't afford to lose. But really, comparatively speaking, any gun you carry will be insignificant compared to the cost of a lawyer and the cost to your family if you don't win the fight.

 

[indyjoe]

One variable I didn't think about: I tend to OC. No need to "show" anyone that I am armed. It is plainly visible, and pretty obvious when I set my hand on the grip.

Yes, that does change things. If someone see an OC pistol and still continues, the variable is different than a CC pistol being drawn. At that point, you are drawing to stop the threat.

The problem with waiting until the threat needs stopped with CC, is that draw IS slower than OC. Even with practice. But if the act of drawing and aiming the weapon stops the threat, then you are no longer justified in firing.

 

[JoshuaW]

Also I have read somewhere that if one is involved in a self defensive shooting that you will never see your gun again. Myth?

That should be the last thing you worry about. You may or may not see it again. If the investigation/prosecution drags on, it could easily "get lost" in the process. If its over quickly, you will probably get it back. Dont carry something you cant lose though.

Im in the mindset of draw if the threat is substantial. If you have verified the threat, and it continues, shoot till its stopped. Call the cops if you have to draw, and if you have to shoot, call a lawyer immediately. There are all sorts of opinions on what to say/not say. If you search around, you will be able to get a good idea on it all. One thing most people will agree on, dont use the word "kill". Stop is a more appropriate term.

 

[Farmerjon]

Very good thread topic. Excellent responses. I thought about going and changing my wording in my original answer but that could be a cop out as well as screw up the thought process of the rest of the thread. When I was a sworn deputy in two counties in Indiana for a few years, I went through some horrible training (stand and shoot at a cardboard target) and some excellent training (from run and gun shoot handgun, run and grab shotgun and shoot over the hood, reload both with one hand, etc.). Went through the training with the record disc thing that was very involved and really put your heart rate up and the instructor gave instant feedback after the event. I state the above only so you realize I do have some background/training. My terminology has slipped as it has been ten years since I have worn a uniform. Hunting and processing livestock on my farm has created the terminology of "kill", "quick kill", "humane kill" in my language. I do agree that my intent isn't to "kill" but effectively stop the threat to me or my family. When training yourself or your loved one, if you aren't prepared mentally to "kill" you are most likely going to end up being shot by your own gun. My little sister lived down South (Mississippi) years ago and had a stalker stalking her. When they (her and her husband) came home to visit, my dad was going to give her a 38 revolver. We shot some 22's, the 38, discussed her house and the tunnels/hallways and where she needed to be. Decided she could retreat to her upstairs bedroom where the gun and a phone would be. Told her to call the police and have the gun in hand. Then we started talking about the number of stairs and when she would have to shoot. Which step was going to be his last step. She said she couldn't kill him, would only be able to shoot to scare him. I couldn't talk her out of this mentality, told dad not to give her the gun cause she would get it taken away and shot with it. Kill has to be in your mind. It isn't any more premeditated than carrying the gun on your side. If carrying isn't premeditated or promoted as such by the thug's attorney, the word kill is miniscule.
If any of us ever have to shoot someone, the threat of that moment will be gone yes, but life as we currently know it will be over for the rest of our lifetime. The thug's family will be after everything you own. Admit it, they want something for nothing. Those of us that own our own homes and have money for decent vehicles and guns as hobbies are considered "rich" by many. If they don't succeed, they will drain your assets protecting what you can afford to keep, many of them utilize free lawyers out for a percentage of "the take". We the innocent have to pay to protect ourselves. So if the word kill offends. I apologize. Reduce, eliminate, stop, protect or kill, I carry so I can survive.

 

[Keith_Indy]

It's good to think through these things before they happen.

Draw if the life of your family, yourself, or those around you are at stake. If the threat continues, or escalates, shoot until the threat is gone. That's they way I've always kept it straight in my head. And the same goes with knife, or even bare hands. I'll only use violence to counter violence against me, or mine.

And for me that means, if it's anything other then the threat of violence against you, or your family, try to deescalate the situation. For instance, and of course this is 20/20 and not being there, cyberwild360 might have been able to cross the street, duck into a shop or someplace, or turned back around. Anything to turn yourself from prey to not-prey in the eyes of a potential attacker.

While I'm taking a rhetorical beating in this thread, I'll maintain my position that what the UFC fighter did was all wrong. The fighter wasn't protecting anyone, and in fact, chased the other guy down. The fighter escalated the situation, and if it turned more violent or deadly, to my understanding at least, could not have claimed self-defense.

 

[HighStrung]

I was taught from a young age that you should never pull you're gun on someone unless you're intent on killing them. I havn't faced a situation yet where I've had to either. If that situation should arise, I won't hesitate to draw. I hope the BG realizes that as I'm drawing my weapon, he/she has from time it takes for my hand to hit the grip until I've lined up the sights to chose another course of action. If I'm at the point where I've lined up the sights, it's probably too late and I will have decided the fate of the situation. The drawing of my weapon is an absolute last course of action for me, it's not a warning, it's a solution to an immediate threat to my/my family's well being.

 

[indianajoe]

This book is a must-have (not to replace training):

Amazon.com: Indiana Handgun Law (9780978627690): Bryan Lee Ciyou: Books

They're typically set up with a table at the 1500.