Why an AR ?

[Hookeye]

.223...................good general varmint cartridge.
Semi auto..............good for running or multiple coyotes.
Platform can shoot sub MOA even in non target versions.
Easy to put on an adjustable stock to have one gun fit shooters of different sizes (and not much recoil in .223).
Conversion to deer legal (or other calibers) is simple.

Built a couple, owned maybe 6 or 7. I think they're just fine and that every good citizen should have one (or something comparable).

However I just don't like the looks of 'em. Not really a .223 fan either.

 

[ssblair]

My background is as a high power competitive shooter. ARs are the service rifle of choice among CMP and NRA shooters, and also among 3-gun shooters. The gas-impingement action is inherently more accurate (fewer moving parts, fewer parts to rattle around) and the small caliber cartridge is light on recoil. I've heard of ARs with good loads that are able to hold 1/2 or even 1/4 MOA.

As an engineer, the AR platform is outstanding for 3 reasons: Modularity, Configurability, and Ease of assembly.
(1) Lower assembly (the "firearm" with the serial number) can be an unlimited number of "rifles" of different calibers (from .22LR to .50 BMG) and configurations (long barrels, short barrels, semi-auto, bolt-action, optics, iron-sights, you name it) by building or swapping different upper assemblies.

All aspects of the gun can be customized with any number of accessories, trigger groups, buttstocks, optics, fore-ends, muzzle brakes, barrel lengths, calibers, etc. and you don't need a gunsmith to install them. Some have called the AR platform "Barbie for men" due to its infinite customizability.

All aspects of the rifle can be built with simple tools and you don't need a gunsmith to time barrels, build the rifle, or change configuration, and as it is a mil-spec platform, parts are made everywhere as is ammunition in its native .223/5.56 caliber. It truly is the "people's Rifle" as no other rifle design can match this.

It's not without its weaknesses--its not nearly as mechanically forgiving as an AK (for example) or other historical service rifles like the Garand, and I certainly can't imagine anybody hanging it up above the fireplace mantle, but it is the most flexible and potentially least expensive centerfire rifle system available in current production.

 

[kawtech87]

Some have called the AR platform "Barbie for men" due to its infinite customizability.

I like to think of them as "Legos for grown ups" but whatever floats your boat I guess.

 

[BigJohn]

Here is where I usually get responces like how can you carry that bla bla bla. Sir I was also in the service Army I was asked once how I liked the M16 By a merchant my answer was this " if I was walking through the woods and found an M14 buried up to the trigger and a box of ammo I would pull it out of the ground kick the dirt out of it chamber it fire it and the M16 would be buried in its place. As for the platform, I have an LR in .308 with a heavy barrel and bypod I don't stack a bunch of stuff on it except a scope. I have carried it on a couple of hunts but still prefer my bolt gun.

 

[Leo]

I still dabble at National Match type Highpower rifle Competition. The AR 15 is the cheapest way to compete. The little 5.56 varmint round costs less than 1/2 as much as a .30 caliber, if you are buying new or are reloading. That is important when you are spending 88 rounds per match (on top of transportation and match fees)

The other two legal service class rifles, the M1 and the M1a are more expensive in Match quality. They are a little more difficult to maintain as far as keeping the stocks bedded. The recoil signature is also more demanding of a shooters attention to proper position and sling pressure. I was shooting an M1a (supermatch) at Master level when I went to an AR based rifle. It was so much easier and my scores were far more consistant. I have never seen any AR shooter go to a .30 caliber rifle and not have consistantly lower scores, at least until they get used to recoil management.

I was never really in love with the little black rifle but I do give credit where credit is due. They are pretty darn good shooters, especially where you need a semi auto repeater. There is so much aftermarket support for the AR. You can order a new rifle, like a Buchmaster DCM, add Turner sling and go shoot with a reasonable expectation of being able to win, if that is your capability. You do not have to spend a lot of time waiting for the gunsmith, and buying beer and pizza for every AMU armorer to do their "magic" getting it tuned up to top performance.

 

[youngda9]

So, what do you consider lightweight? 5lbs?

Well a standard Rock River weighs 8lbs unloaded and without an optic. That is HEAVY. Some quick internet research shows this is not uncommon amongst manufacturers, you can do the same. 30rounds of 5.56 adds another 0.8lbs. So loaded with an optic and you're at 10lbs....I don't consider that light weight.
Rock River Arms: NEW! RRA LAR-15 Elite Operator2

Also for recoil, your shotty has less?

I did not mention recoil as I am not sensitive to it...especially out of an 8+lb semi-auto rifle in .223 that only has 1300ft-lbs of muzzle energy.

As for accuracy, did you not shoot well and blame the rifle? Just curious. An old fella I've talked to at FNS was shooting 1" groups in 200yrds.

No, I shoot many sub MOA groups, and I know you need to get a high dollar ($2,000+ I'd bet) AR to get consistent 1" 5-shot groups at 100yds out of an AR. If you know a reasonably priced (<$1,000) AR from the factory that will consistently shoot 1" 5-shot groups at 100yds the world would like to know, do share. All the guys that I see shooting ARs from the 100yd line are typically in the 4" or larger group size with a scope. I've seen a couple guys shooting 3" groups.

 

[kawtech87]

My Windham Weaponry AR weighs in at ~6.5lbs w/o a loaded mag. A "light" AR can be had pretty easily. I say "light" because that is relative.

You do not need to spend 2k+ on the rifle to get good groups out of one. Mine is more accurate than I am. I can get ~2-3" groups at 100yds with open sights. I'm sure with good glass and a stable bench I could manage a 1MOA group at 100yds. And my rifle cost $850.00 new in box out the door.

 

[Sgtusmc]

This is MY rifle

Simple answer...

It's the platform I was trained on, know best and can rely on to hit targets at 0-500+ yards with.

... and if that first round doesn't impact my target, surely one of the next 29-30 will before reloading.

This is my rifle. There are many like it but this one is mine...



...and for those who don't know the Rifleman's Creed that us Marines live by....

Rifleman's Creed

This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. My rifle, without me, is useless. Without my rifle, I am useless. I must fire my rifle true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will... My rifle and I know that what counts in this war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, nor the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit... My rifle is human, even as I, because it is my life. Thus, I will learn it as a brother. I will learn its weaknesses, its strength, its parts, its accessories, its sights and its barrel. I will keep my rifle clean and ready, even as I am clean and ready. We will become part of each other. We will... Before God, I swear this creed. My rifle and I are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of my life. So be it, until victory is America's and there is no enemy, but peace! ​

 

[Pooty22]

The REAL answer is that the liberals want to ban them. If they were not the ultimate all around weapon for all those things you stated question for, then the dems wouldnt try to rip them from our hands. They are lightweight, accurate, have a large capacity of rounds, very easy to use, clean, and are very reliable. in the event of a civil war, shooting a shotgun in the air will be stupid, hand guns will be almost pointless for most people outside 50 feet. The first time i shot one i was hitting a 2inch by 2 inch traget from 100 yards with no problem(scoped of course). For me, its that the gov't and dems dont want you to have them, so in my view, that is the very best reason.

Wow some people can politicize ANYTHING.

 

[youngda9]

You do not need to spend 2k+ on the rifle to get good groups out of one. Mine is more accurate than I am. I can get ~2-3" groups at 100yds with open sights. I'm sure with good glass and a stable bench I could manage a 1MOA group at 100yds. And my rifle cost $850.00 new in box out the door.

You "can" or you "always" get ~2-3" for 5-shot groups at 100yds. Saying you "can" could mean that every now and then you can find three shots that are within 3" at 100 yards.

If you added glass you could manage "a" 1MOA group at 100 yards....do you mean every time with 5 shots? Or you might luck into one ("manage a 1MOA group") and claim your rifle is a 1MOA gun? Until you do this is just speculation.

You state you rifle is "more accurate than you are", yet you only shoot 2-3" groups (how many shots, and do you do it consistently)...what are you even trying to say?

Sorry about the nit-picks, but words have meaning.

Anyways...you seem to be the exception to the rule doing even ~2-3" with irons at 100yds (I assume you're talking about 5-shot groups and you can do this all the time, you haven't stated so). I've seen so many people do so much worse.

 

[Sgtusmc]

All this talk about group size and MOA. The A2 and the M4 is not a sniper rifle. It's meant to hit a human sized target and cause the enemy to deal with the casualties. You don't need any glass to hit a human size target at 500 yards. Iron sites are very capable in doing so.

 

[rvb]

I shoot many sub MOA groups, and I know you need to get a high dollar ($2,000+ I'd bet) AR to get consistent 1" 5-shot groups at 100yds out of an AR. ... All the guys that I see shooting ARs from the 100yd line are typically in the 4" or larger group size with a scope. I've seen a couple guys shooting 3" groups.

... you think you know....

I see a lot of guys w/ bolt guns and big glass that aren't doing any better, too. Bad shooters don't define the platform. Also, realize a lot of these guys are probably shooting the cheapest ball round they can find. ammo certainly makes a difference, and you can't expect cheap olympic nato rounds or pmc to do match grade work.

You don't need to go that high dollar for an AR to shoot moa. a decent barrel and a decent trigger are the biggest costs. I bet no more than 1/2 your estimate will get a rifle that does consistent 1 moa 5-shot groups (~$120 for a rra trigger and ~$300 for a woa barrel, and that leaves a few hundred to finish the gun under $1k).

I get consistent 1.25" 5-shot groups from my 3-gun AR, and that's not "match" ammo, just reloads with cheap/bulk hornady 55s. I think the gun will do better, especially once I build up a variety of components to really do some load development, but I'm just using a 4x scope and fighting an astigmatism in my dominant eye that is keeping me from a solid focus on the reticle and getting a consistent hold. I'd like to get a 16x glass on the gun to help see what it can really do. I probably have ~$1400 in mine, and that's w/ some higher-end parts for 3-gun use (lightened JP carrier, JP handguards, etc. For the same accuracy, I could have built it for several hundred less)

I built my dad an AR for use off a bench. w/ a good trigger (geissele) and barrel (lilja) and nothing else fancy (probably ~$1500 total, half of that in the trigger/barrel), he's gotten a few 1/2" 5-shot groups. His problem now is consistency just because ammo and reloading components are so hard to get, so he hasn't done any load development or been able to get a stock of the better-shooting factory ammo. I have no doubt once his ammo is dialed in it will be consistently in the 1/2-moa territory.

If you know a reasonably priced (<$1,000) AR from the factory that will consistently shoot 1" 5-shot groups at 100yds the world would like to know, do share.

Here's a $610 upper that I would be shocked if it couldn't do 1 moa or better. White Oak Armament
put that on top of a <$400 lower w/ a match trigger, and you're in business for right at $1k or less.

as far as weight, that varies so much you can't make a generalization.
I have an old Colt carbine w/ a pencil barrel (SporterII) that is VERY light. I also have a 20" hbar that's very heavy. The best comparison is to previous battle rifles (M1/M14) and suddenly even the heaviest AR doesn't seem so heavy any more.....

-rvb

 

[yotewacker]

I like the AR. I hunt often with them. A few very accurate. I put up with anyone's bolt.

The new piston system is the cats meow.

 

[Manatee]

Let's face it. The majority of shooters aren't all that crazy about punching little holes in pieces of paper. They get bored. Give them reactive targets….or Coke cans and their focus narrows and their "groups" improve.

My general approach to accuracy when there isn't someone on the other end of that firing range shooting back at you is if you can hit the end of a Coke can consistently at 100 yards, you are a superb marksman.

Punch all the paper you want with the firearm locked in a rest. Boring.

 

[rvb]

Let's face it. The majority of shooters aren't all that crazy about punching little holes in pieces of paper. They get bored. Give them reactive targets….or Coke cans and their focus narrows and their "groups" improve.

My general approach to accuracy when there isn't someone on the other end of that firing range shooting back at you is if you can hit the end of a Coke can consistently at 100 yards, you are a superb marksman.

Punch all the paper you want with the firearm locked in a rest. Boring.

yup. and after doing ipsc/3-gun, standing still is boring, too!

I shoot groups to 1) check ammo 2) check the rifle. ... or if I'm shooting w/ dad, who enjoys shooting off a bench. even then I'm usually shooting prone, work on barricade support positions, etc....

-rvb

 

[Manatee]

yup. and after doing ipsc/3-gun, standing still is boring, too!

I shoot groups to 1) check ammo 2) check the rifle. ... or if I'm shooting w/ dad, who enjoys shooting off a bench. even then I'm usually shooting prone, work on barricade support positions, etc....

-rvb

Agree. As Sundance said: "Can I move?"

 

[Robjps]

I'm not a fan. They are very expensive compared to any other rifle type. They are not accurate (compared to most any other equally priced rifle...they are not as accurate as a $350 Savage in any caliber). I have no need for rapid fire capability. They are not light. They are cumbersome for hunting. They are not ergonomic, I've never thrown one up to my shoulder and thought it fit right despite many attempts. I do not drag my rifle through harsh muddy requirements or roll on the ground with them trying to shoot at paper...and if I did a bolt gun will always be more reliable than an autoloader. I have no need for long 30 rounds to get in the way of my hunting or target shooting, and I don't spray-n-pray. I don't need tactical crapola on a rifle...I have no desire to play army or worry about zombies. I do not see them as versatile for anything that I do. They are nowhere near the top of my list for hunting (weak calibers generally(.223 is a varmint round and not legal for deer in many states), not that accurate for the cost, expensive, heavy, bulky, and no pretty wood). They are not at the top of my list for home defense (shotty with Buck is much more effective and on a slimmer, more ergonomic, and simpler platform). I know this flies in the face of many who like them and they always get their tactical panties in a bunch when I point this out (my flame suit is on :P ) I personally see no need for one, and if there ever is a need I'll pick one up off the ground or use a rifle to blast a guy 300 yards away that has a nice rig and go get his LOL.

Having said that people love them and that's fine. I just can't and won't get into it. I don't disparage those who do, but I clearly disagree with many of their reasons for doing so.

A semi auto not as accurate as a bolt gun? Say it ain't so! Usually AR are built to be milspec or close to it as possible if you are after accuracy better then 3moa. You are looking for a gun with a match grade barrel/trigger and free float handguards. Its like getting a grand or M1A out of the box and being like this gun sucks because its not set up how you actually wanted.

If you don't hang those taticool crap off of it an AR 15 weighs 6 lbs not sure how that is heavy.

As far as caliber is concerned guns are tools you need to use the right tool for the job. You don't shoot squirrels with a 50bmg and you don't shoot elk with a 22lr. They also come in calibers 22lr through 270. And 308 if you want a bigger gun which will ill give you be heavier.

Your "shotty" with buck is a great defensive weapon i have no idea how its slimmer or simpler. Both have a safety and a trigger. Not sure how having to likely pump it is simpler. Ergos are personal choice i find shotguns as long as they don't have some crappy tacticool stock on them on par with AR's , mini14 etc... They are also great for smaller framed people or people not used to recoil. I hope you never have a day that 4 rounds in a 870 isn't enough.

Its clear you do not like the platform and do not seem to have a use for it. But

 

[kawtech87]

You "can" or you "always" get ~2-3" for 5-shot groups at 100yds. Saying you "can" could mean that every now and then you can find three shots that are within 3" at 100 yards.

If you added glass you could manage "a" 1MOA group at 100 yards....do you mean every time with 5 shots? Or you might luck into one ("manage a 1MOA group") and claim your rifle is a 1MOA gun? Until you do this is just speculation.

You state you rifle is "more accurate than you are", yet you only shoot 2-3" groups (how many shots, and do you do it consistently)...what are you even trying to say?

Sorry about the nit-picks, but words have meaning.

Anyways...you seem to be the exception to the rule doing even ~2-3" with irons at 100yds (I assume you're talking about 5-shot groups and you can do this all the time, you haven't stated so). I've seen so many people do so much worse.

I can manage ~2-3" groups with open sights. I do not always no. But I do not have a solid bench to shoot off of. I shoot off of an old wobbly folding table. Normally 5 shot groups. I do not normally shoot groups though. I pretty much only do that to sight it in. And then I shoot bottles, cans, pumpkins, any number of improvised targets because that is what I think is fun. Good ammo is a factor. Crap ammo makes crap groups like any other rifle. I doubt I am any kind of an exception. The only advantage I mat poses is youthful eyes, I have been tested between 20/13 and 20/15 vision. I can see further and more clearly than most which, in theory, would allow me to make hits with irons easier.

I would actually like to see a controlled test done with an AR strapped to a bench and fired remotely with match ammo in an indoor range to see the true accuracy potential of the platform.

If you don't like the AR platform that is fine. But I really don't see the need for others to justify their choices to anyone.

I like my ARs. That is all I need to know.

 

[Sgtusmc]

This board and all the arguments that entail reminds me of a recent video I watched of an island in a lake on an island in a lake on an island.

[video]http://www.livescience.com/40566-world-s-largest-island-in-a-lake-on-an-island-in-a-lake-on-an-island-video.html[/video]

Also, "Spray and pray" is an antiquated term used by those who don't understand Murphy's Law.

FROM THE WIKI

"Spray and pray is a derisive term for firing an automatic firearm towards an enemy in long bursts, without making an effort to line up each shot or burst of shots. This is especially prevalent amongst those without benefit of proper training. It differs from suppressive fire as the shooting is sloppily directed. This term does not apply to appropriately focused fully automatic fire or true suppressive fire, which is standard practice for a properly trained combatant."

"HEY JIMBO! Load up that bolt rifle and suppress that building so I can get my team across!" BANG.....................BANG..................... ...BANG......................

 

[Hookeye]

My reg Stag upper/lower build with ER Shaw 16" 1-9 heavy bbl (heavy MG bbl, not any target or varmint bbl) shoots sub MOA.
Not chrome lined and has a JP Spring kit with a setscrew above grip screw to take out most creep (notched trigger for even more though). 55gr Hornady V max..........with the trigger mod it's a usable varmint rifle. Scope is 2-7X.

My old Bushmaster shorty (11.5 w 5.5 flash) was also sub MOA ................first AR, I was surprised. Was a bit of a learning curve to figure out that stock crappy trigger, but bagged it'd lay 'em in there with a 4x scope.

But have seen other stock rigs shoot well since, esp after trigger mods. Good reloads or factory ammo they liked. Never any junk stuff though.

Not a fan of AR's really, or Glocks. I think it not so much to do with the platforms themselves, but the average owners of them.

And I'm with KT87...................exceptional vision is a very nice thing. Mine's gone, but I had it. Do think finer visual focus leads to finer mental focus.

Somebody say they aren't ergonomic? Yeeesh. Lay off the cheap beer.

I dearly love steel and walnut, but dang it if an AR doesn't fit and feel better to me than an M1A or Mini 14.