Will "abortion rights" kill our fight for the Second Amendment?

[bwframe]

Voters in Ohio reject GOP-backed proposal that would have made it tougher to protect abortion rights

While abortion was not directly on the special election ballot, the result marks the latest setback for Republicans in a conservative-leaning state who favor imposing tough restrictions on the procedure.

apnews.com

Ohio voters reject ballot measure in win for abortion rights advocates

Ohio voters on Tuesday rejected a Republican-backed measure that would have made it harder to amend the state constitution, an initiative aimed at helping defeat a November referendum that would protect abortion access in the state.

www.reuters.com

 

[Ark]

Eh. So Ohio remains at status quo.

It does continue to surprise me how many people's number one priority in the world is ensuring they can kill their own children however and whenever they please.

With the abortion cult firmly in the driver's seat and the Christian right almost dead, at some point the GOP is probably going to have to give up on abortion restrictions. The intervening time since Dobbs seems to have proven that the American voter wants, above and to the exclusion of all else, to be able to kill their children.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Eh. So Ohio remains at status quo.

It does continue to surprise me how many people's number one priority in the world is ensuring they can kill their own children however and whenever they please.

With the abortion cult firmly in the driver's seat and the Christian right almost dead, at some point the GOP is probably going to have to give up on abortion restrictions. The intervening time since Dobbs seems to have proven that the American voter wants, above and to the exclusion of all else, to be able to kill their children.

Humans have always been willing to sacrifice their children to satisfy their own desires.

 

[Creedmoor]

Eh. So Ohio remains at status quo.

It does continue to surprise me how many people's number one priority in the world is ensuring they can kill their own children however and whenever they please.

With the abortion cult firmly in the driver's seat and the Christian right almost dead, at some point the GOP is probably going to have to give up on abortion restrictions. The intervening time since Dobbs seems to have proven that the American voter wants, above and to the exclusion of all else, to be able to kill their children.

What children are being killed? Show your work.

 

[bwframe]

The question is whether we can still win when our opponent is so much better at selling their message to most women on top of all the dems?

The dems have successfully sold abortion as "women's health" for years. We have generations of girls raised and taught in school to believe that.

Like the gent posting above, the libs have sold lots of folks that a life is not a life, until out of the womb.

This thread isn't about that argument though. It's about whether WE can still retain our Second Amendment against an opponent so successful at selling their message? There is no denying that a large part of the crowd that are militant about abortion are also 2A opponents.

Can we still win? Can we sell our 2A message to any of those who not be budged on abortion? Are the numbers so one-sided on abortion that the 2A will take the back seat?

 

[manifest destiny]

The question is whether we can still win when our opponent is so much better at selling their message to most women on top of all the dems?

The dems have successfully sold abortion as "women's health" for years. We have generations of girls raised and taught in school to believe that.

Like the gent posting above, the libs have sold lots of folks that a life is not a life, until out of the womb.

This thread isn't about that argument though. It's about whether WE can still retain our Second Amendment against an opponent so successful at selling their message? There is no denying that a large part of the crowd that are militant about abortion are also 2A opponents.

Can we still win? Can we sell our 2A message to any of those who not be budged on abortion? Are the numbers so one-sided on abortion that the 2A will take the back seat?

Last I looked, Planned Parenthood didn't even offer mammograms. So much for women's health.
To your point, can 2a survive and prosper when the enemy of 2a is both skilled at messaging and positioned within the system to amplify their message and suppress any other position from being heard? My honest consideration is that "they" are going to get the guns. What the death of the 2a actually looks like, IDK. If 2a death comes from a thousand cuts, we're pretty cut up right now- braces, thumbholes, mag/rounds limit, barrel length, on and on. I suspect UBC is fait accompli. And of course to enforce UBC a registry is needed. On and on it will go.

 

[Twangbanger]

Eh. So Ohio remains at status quo.

It does continue to surprise me how many people's number one priority in the world is ensuring they can kill their own children however and whenever they please.

With the abortion cult firmly in the driver's seat and the Christian right almost dead, at some point the GOP is probably going to have to give up on abortion restrictions. The intervening time since Dobbs seems to have proven that the American voter wants, above and to the exclusion of all else, to be able to kill their children.

I don't want to kill my children.

I just want my taxes to pay for as few of other people's crotch-goblins as is societally possible.

To the OP's point, the Ohio thing preserves 50%-plus-one as the standard for changing their state constitution. Whether that's good or bad for 2A, depends on who's changing the constitution and for what reason.

Extending gun owner protections in the Ohio constitution beyond that called for by the US Constitution? Then yesterday's result could be good for Buckeye gun owners.

If you're an Illinois plutocrat like Dick Uihlein (of "U-Line" Shipping Supplies and Schlitz Beer fame) using your money to stop Ohio voters from enshrining abortion rights in their state constitution this November election? Then you're probably unhappy how your money was wasted yesterday.

If you're just a gun-owner for whom abortion ranks below the top ten of political issues, and want to see the football kept out of Democrat hands in general? Then yes, the GOP fascination with the issue probably contributes to the "death by a thousand cuts." The GOP rightly or wrongly has earned the image of being the party of business owners, homeschooling evangelicals, and fetuses.

Problem is, the fetuses are mostly growing up to vote Democrat...

 

[bobzilla]

To answer the question: Yes. Yes it will kill our rights fighting them. They have already "vilified" all republicans.

 

[Expat]

We are going to have to depend on SCOTUS until the abortion thing shakes out.

 

[cosermann]

I have heard many reports aren't including the whole story. The ballot measure not only asked Ohioans to decide if the threshold for amending the state constitution should be raised to 60%, but it also proposed that future citizen-led initiatives should have signatures exceeding 20% of the total vote in the preceding gubernatorial election and that percentage had to be met or exceeded in ALL of Ohio's 88 counties.

Such a change would have meant a single hold-out county could frustrate an attempt to put a voter-led initiative on the ballot.

Many believe it was this last bit that made the initiative too difficult to swallow. I don't think they should give up on this. Revise the measure to be simpler - just the raising of the threshold to 60%, and reintroduce it. The left doesn't just give up and say, "oh, well we tried," when they lose a vote.

 

[Twangbanger]

I have heard many reports aren't including the whole story. The ballot measure not only asked Ohioans to decide if the threshold for amending the state constitution should be raised to 60%, but it also proposed that future citizen-led initiatives should have signatures exceeding 20% of the total vote in the preceding gubernatorial election and that percentage had to be met or exceeded in ALL of Ohio's 88 counties.

Such a change would have meant a single hold-out county could frustrate an attempt to put a voter-led initiative on the ballot.

Many believe it was this last bit that made the initiative too difficult to swallow. I don't think they should give up on this. Revise the measure to be simpler - just the raising of the threshold to 60%, and reintroduce it. The left doesn't just give up and say, "oh, well we tried," when they lose a vote.

But allowing a small number of counties to stymy a referendum was the _point_. The Pro Life movement wanted abortion left to the states, but the states aren't behaving the way they wanted. They're afraid enough signatures could be collected in urban counties to get referenda on the ballot against the wishes of rural counties. So they went for the quad-fecta: a 60% passage threshold, two requirements related to the percentage and geographic distribution of petition signatures, and a final "F-U" measure dropping the ability of referendum-seekers to collect replacement signatures if the original ones are challenged.

 

[AndreusMaximus]

What children are being killed? Show your work.

Pictures of Aborted Babies

These pictures of Aborted Babies shows what remains of a baby destroyed by a suction aspiration abortion or "vacuum curettage,"

wisconsinrighttolife.org

These 10 photos show the reality of late-term abortion

These unsettling, heart-wrenching photos from the second trimester show that babies killed by late-term abortion are very clearly human beings.

www.liveaction.org

 

[Gingerbeardman]

So if they're pro abortion, and they argue guns are dangerous to children.... They should be ok with the second amendment in its original form, right? To their arguement, it's same same. It seems ridiculous but it's logically accurate isn't it, when limited to that one argument?

 

[Creedmoor]

Pictures of Aborted Babies

These pictures of Aborted Babies shows what remains of a baby destroyed by a suction aspiration abortion or "vacuum curettage,"

wisconsinrighttolife.org

These 10 photos show the reality of late-term abortion

These unsettling, heart-wrenching photos from the second trimester show that babies killed by late-term abortion are very clearly human beings.

www.liveaction.org

No children being killed there.

 

[Creedmoor]

So if they're pro abortion, and they argue guns are dangerous to children.... They should be ok with the second amendment in its original form, right? To their arguement, it's same same. It seems ridiculous but it's logically accurate isn't it, when limited to that one argument?

I'm Pro Choice/Abortion and Pro 2nd Amendment, my whole family is.
Who am I to tell a woman what to do with her medicial choices.

 

[ZurokSlayer7X9]

Well this thread is probably going to get busy soon.

 

[HoughMade]

I'm Pro Choice/Abortion and Pro 2nd Amendment, my whole family is.
Who am I to tell a woman what to do with her medicial choices.

Many people take that position. Others don't. Now the voters in each state can, through their elected representatives, choose what their laws are in this regard. I'm good with that.

 

[Creedmoor]

Now the voters in each state can, through their elected representatives, choose what their laws are in this regard. I'm good with that.

And I'm good with it also.

 

[LeftyGunner]

Voters in Ohio reject GOP-backed proposal that would have made it tougher to protect abortion rights

While abortion was not directly on the special election ballot, the result marks the latest setback for Republicans in a conservative-leaning state who favor imposing tough restrictions on the procedure.

apnews.com

Ohio voters reject ballot measure in win for abortion rights advocates

Ohio voters on Tuesday rejected a Republican-backed measure that would have made it harder to amend the state constitution, an initiative aimed at helping defeat a November referendum that would protect abortion access in the state.

www.reuters.com

Some people see having access to abortion as more relevant to their own lives than having access to guns.

I think liberty means that people get to make these decisions for themselves.

(I can’t tell what your third link is…it comes up as a solid black box on screen)

 

[Twangbanger]

Many people take that position. Others don't. Now the voters in each state can, through their elected representatives, choose what their laws are in this regard. I'm good with that.

They can also choose via the referendum process. And I'm good with that.