Will "abortion rights" kill our fight for the Second Amendment?

[Ingomike]

Seems like a time to look at this thread again?

Next election, will our Second Amendment rights get caught in the "abortion rights" toilet swirl?

Yep. I am pretty strong in my beliefs that abortion is wrong and murder. I am rethinking my political positions. Are my votes God‘s or Ceasers? Conservatives may need to be more libertarian on legislation while doing what they can to stop abortion as much as they can.

They said to Him, “Caesar’s.” And He said to them, “Render[a] therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”

“Virginia Democrats kept a death grip on a single message that got them over the finish line. If you turn the state over to the “MAGA Republicans,” they’re going to outlaw abortion. And it worked.”

What Went Wrong in Virginia? One Word

hotair.com

 

[manifest destiny]

I bet the total number of abortions would drop if one rule was in place... you can't sell the parts. Indiana tried something similar in that the aborted remains were to be buried, burned or sent to biohazard trash. It was overruled by the courts. The 'business' of abortion is all about harvesting and selling parts. And, I suppose on occasion, may be of benefit to the would-be mother.

 

[AndreusMaximus]

Yep. I am pretty strong in my beliefs that abortion is wrong and murder. I am rethinking my political positions. Are my votes God‘s or Ceasers? Conservatives may need to be more libertarian on legislation while doing what they can to stop abortion as much as they can.

They said to Him, “Caesar’s.” And He said to them, “Render[a] therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”

“Virginia Democrats kept a death grip on a single message that got them over the finish line. If you turn the state over to the “MAGA Republicans,” they’re going to outlaw abortion. And it worked.”

What Went Wrong in Virginia? One Word

hotair.com

How can you be "more libertarian" on murder?

The question of what belongs to Caesar and what belongs to God is relevant for religious issues. For instance, you wouldn't (I hope) want a law requiring people to go to Church on Sundays, because that's a religious question. But if you really mean that you believe abortion is murder, then it's not a religious question that you can leave up to every individual to decide; it's a moral question, and I don't see how you'd justify legalizing it any more that legalizing the killing of any other class of human beings.

Maybe you're just saying to be more pragmatic about what we can realistically achieve on the abortion front? But then how does God vs Caesar enter the equation?

 

[AndreusMaximus]

I bet the total number of abortions would drop if one rule was in place... you can't sell the parts. Indiana tried something similar in that the aborted remains were to be buried, burned or sent to biohazard trash. It was overruled by the courts. The 'business' of abortion is all about harvesting and selling parts. And, I suppose on occasion, may be of benefit to the would-be mother.

I doubt that's the case. For one thing, the majority of abortions are chemical, meaning no body parts are recovered.

 

[manifest destiny]

I doubt that's the case. For one thing, the majority of abortions are chemical, meaning no body parts are recovered.

I'll defer to your position on the majority being chemical. I really don't know the total numbers. But many parts are harvested and sold. The players in the business all deny the gruesome details, the parts and tissues are labeled as "donated" and other means are used to obscure ugly details. The article below is opinion and is labeled as such. It may also be in the extreme. My point was more to the fact that removing the financial benefit places like Planned Parenthood might receive via "donated" tissues might also lessen their sales pitch to the woman sitting on the fence about going term or have an abortion, thus lessening the abortion totals. From the attached:

The University and their health care counterpart UPMC may have been keeping aborted babies alive to ensure an adequate blood supply from the child’s heart to other organs so they could harvest their tissue, according to records obtained by Judicial Watch. The process was described in a 2015 grant application to the National Institutes of Health.

Were aborted babies kept alive to harvest tissue?

As the University of Pittsburgh spins a web of confusion about methods by which fetal organs are obtained for research projects, the lips of their affiliated medical center are sealed.

www.washingtontimes.com

 

[Twangbanger]

I doubt that's the case. For one thing, the majority of abortions are chemical, meaning no body parts are recovered.

Concur, that's the reason for the 5-6 week "heartbeat bills." The pharmaceutical realities of abortion have changed the game for the Pro Life Movement. You no longer need a clinic to get an abortion. Tirading against late-term abortions doesn't work if the public realizes that's not when most of them occur. Much of the public doesn't support restrictions right back to the time pregnancy can be detected...but that's what The Movement must do to actually stop abortions. The PLM can't agree to the 15-24 week window much of the public supports, because with pharmaceuticals, that's tantamount to defeat. Drugs have pushed the fight back into that 5-6 week territory and the PLM is getting beat there, even in Trump states, because it seems like the more extreme position.

 

[manifest destiny]

This article is titled "The Truth..." but the whole article is in defense of the tissue harvesting and subsequent research. It even goes so far as to use an episode of gun violence at a Planned Parenthood to explain why nobody in the biz of parts harvesting and selling will come forward, lest they be attacked by an extremist. I'm not an absolutist when it comes to abortion. I view it as a states rights issue and as we know, some states will push everything to the extremes. I'm against selling aborted body parts or "tissues" as they are so eloquently referred to.

The Truth about Fetal Tissue Research

The use of aborted fetal tissue has sparked controversy in the U.S., but many scientists say it is essential for studies of HIV, development and more

www.scientificamerican.com

 

[Ingomike]

How can you be "more libertarian" on murder?

The question of what belongs to Caesar and what belongs to God is relevant for religious issues. For instance, you wouldn't (I hope) want a law requiring people to go to Church on Sundays, because that's a religious question. But if you really mean that you believe abortion is murder, then it's not a religious question that you can leave up to every individual to decide; it's a moral question, and I don't see how you'd justify legalizing it any more that legalizing the killing of any other class of human beings.

Maybe you're just saying to be more pragmatic about what we can realistically achieve on the abortion front? But then how does God vs Caesar enter the equation?

Is the Indiana code God’s laws or man’s laws? Cannot cherry pick here. They either are or they are not. There is definitely overlap but is forcing God’s laws on the unwilling via man’s laws is what I am questioning. Likely two thirds of our neighbors do not believe the killing of babies is even murder, banning all abortion is forcing a morality many of us get from Gods word…

 

[bwframe]

Hey folks, just a reminder here that this thread is about the Second Amendment. Whether The Second Amendment will be lost in the swirl, as we lose the abortion argument?

Nikki Haley explains this argument very well...






Maybe we should take the abortion or not arguments to the appropriate threads in the Politics forum?

 

[AndreusMaximus]

I'll defer to your position on the majority being chemical. I really don't know the total numbers. But many parts are harvested and sold. The players in the business all deny the gruesome details, the parts and tissues are labeled as "donated" and other means are used to obscure ugly details. The article below is opinion and is labeled as such. It may also be in the extreme. My point was more to the fact that removing the financial benefit places like Planned Parenthood might receive via "donated" tissues might also lessen their sales pitch to the woman sitting on the fence about going term or have an abortion, thus lessening the abortion totals. From the attached:

The University and their health care counterpart UPMC may have been keeping aborted babies alive to ensure an adequate blood supply from the child’s heart to other organs so they could harvest their tissue, according to records obtained by Judicial Watch. The process was described in a 2015 grant application to the National Institutes of Health.

Were aborted babies kept alive to harvest tissue?

As the University of Pittsburgh spins a web of confusion about methods by which fetal organs are obtained for research projects, the lips of their affiliated medical center are sealed.

www.washingtontimes.com

Moving the conversation to another thread:

The Effect of "Abortion Rights" on the Political Landscape

Moving the conversation here from another thread, because I'm not sure what's supposed to be discussed or not in that other one.

www.indianagunowners.com

 

[chipbennett]

Yep. I am pretty strong in my beliefs that abortion is wrong and murder. I am rethinking my political positions. Are my votes God‘s or Ceasers? Conservatives may need to be more libertarian on legislation while doing what they can to stop abortion as much as they can.

They said to Him, “Caesar’s.” And He said to them, “Render[a] therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”

“Virginia Democrats kept a death grip on a single message that got them over the finish line. If you turn the state over to the “MAGA Republicans,” they’re going to outlaw abortion. And it worked.”

What Went Wrong in Virginia? One Word

hotair.com

So, apply that thought process to murder laws in general. As with most things big-L Libertarian: it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

If one believes that abortion is murder, and that murder is a violation of the right to life, the protection of which is duly under the purview of governments instituted by man, then one should work politically to ensure that all murder is made unlawful.

 

[chipbennett]

Is the Indiana code God’s laws or man’s laws? Cannot cherry pick here. They either are or they are not. There is definitely overlap but is forcing God’s laws on the unwilling via man’s laws is what I am questioning. Likely two thirds of our neighbors do not believe the killing of babies is even murder, banning all abortion is forcing a morality many of us get from Gods word…

[The Declaration of Independence has entered the chat.]

What people - even the majority of people - believe does not change reality. At one time in US history, a majority of people believed that black people had no rights, and laws reflected that belief. At one time in German history, a majority believed that Jews had no rights, and laws reflected that belief. We rightfully judge those beliefs and laws today as being grossly wrong and immoral - because they offend the basic religious beliefs as articulated in the DOI: that all men are created equal, and are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among them are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to ensure those rights, governments are instituted among men... (paraphrased).

The primary purpose of government is to protect the God-given rights of the people - the right to life included.

 

[chipbennett]

Moving the conversation to another thread:

The Effect of "Abortion Rights" on the Political Landscape

Moving the conversation here from another thread, because I'm not sure what's supposed to be discussed or not in that other one.

www.indianagunowners.com

It's relevant here, because the discussion is about whether engaging in the abortion battle will adversely impact the right to keep and bear arms.

It's relevant here, because the "beliefs" of the majority regarding the right to life (whether applied to abortion or RKBA) do not trump or negate that God-given right, and many of the arguments are the same/similar.

 

[AndreusMaximus]

It's relevant here

I'm just trying to do what the OP asks. He didn't want the abortion part discussed here, despite having "abortion" in the title, so...

 

[chipbennett]

I'm just trying to do what the OP asks. He didn't want the abortion part discussed here, despite having "abortion" in the title, so...

There are certainly plenty of other threads to debate the ins and outs of abortion - and those should be discussed in such threads. Of necessity, the interaction of natural rights, to whom they apply, the appropriate role of government in ensuring those rights, and the comparison and contrasting of application of all of the above to abortion and RKBA are germane in this thread.

 

[AndreusMaximus]

There are certainly plenty of other threads to debate the ins and outs of abortion - and those should be discussed in such threads. Of necessity, the interaction of natural rights, to whom they apply, the appropriate role of government in ensuring those rights, and the comparison and contrasting of application of all of the above to abortion and RKBA are germane in this thread.

Well, I'm slow, and I couldn't figure out where the line is on what is germane and what isn't, and I couldn't figure out who the vague posts asking some people to stop crossing the line were directed at, so I just decided it'd be better if I jumped into a different thread.

Just saying what I did and why, not trying to tell anyone else what to do.

 

[bwframe]

There are certainly plenty of other threads to debate the ins and outs of abortion - and those should be discussed in such threads. Of necessity, the interaction of natural rights, to whom they apply, the appropriate role of government in ensuring those rights, and the comparison and contrasting of application of all of the above to abortion and RKBA are germane in this thread.

Well, I'm slow, and I couldn't figure out where the line is on what is germane and what isn't, and I couldn't figure out who the vague posts asking some people to stop crossing the line were directed at, so I just decided it'd be better if I jumped into a different thread.

Just saying what I did and why, not trying to tell anyone else what to do.

Thank you both for more eloquently laying out my desire to discuss this 2A specific issue without going too far down political rabbit holes!

 

[Kanon]

I think abortion and 2A are equally important, partly a religious standpoint for me, but with strides being made in abortion and not 2A, I am more vocal about 2A.

 

[bwframe]

I think abortion and 2A are equally important, partly a religious standpoint for me, but with strides being made in abortion and not 2A, I am more vocal about 2A.

Equally?

Like the First Amendment, and the rest of the Constitution for that matter, what is any of it without the means of the people to defend it from a tyrannical government?