Working with a gun in your hand

[rvb]

Every MCS course includes ....

ahh ha. The lightbulb just came on. After a quick search I now realize I've been sucked into an infomercial...

-rvb

 

[mercop]

ahh ha. The lightbulb just came on. After a quick search I now realize I've been sucked into an infomercial...

-rvb

Well since I am a professional trainer and do classes in Indy it kind of makes sense that I would be here posting free information that judging from the comments and rep points that this thread has been generated are appreciated by some.

If I did not train for a living where do you think this information would come from? The all too familiar cubicle commando during the week and then decked out on weekends in 5.11 from head to toe training for fast roping off the Space Shuttle whacking tangos?

If you look at my posting history here what you will see is a history of posting solid, evidenced information on interpersonal conflict within seven yards with the open hand, edged weapons, impact weapons and firearms. If you don't want to read it than you are free not to click on the thread.

For everyone else I will continue to post what I believe is valuable information.

RVB, took a gander at your posting history, you seem to be a hardware guy and this is a software discussion. I also see you asking for advice here and there, I guess when it comes to tactics and gun handling you don't need any.- George

 

[rvb]

mercop,

you refered to training swat guys, so yes I figured you did some leo training. I had no idea you offered private training on the subject until you mentioned the company name and I did a quick search.

a little up-front disclosure goes a long way in preventing the appearance of being partial. Lack of that disclosure combined with a one-sided and close-minded attitude towards alternatives ("WTF...WTFC") leaves a bad impression.

at no point have I said your type of training is bad. at no point have I said someone can learn it all from the games. at no point have I said or implied I know it all. I even agree that you're posting valuable info. notice I never even addressed the combat part, the 2nd half, of your first post; all I addressed was an alternative way for people to gain experience doing things like carrying stuff and opening doors safely.

-rvb

 

[mercop]

mercop,

you refered to training swat guys, so yes I figured you did some leo training. I had no idea you offered private training on the subject until you mentioned the company name and I did a quick search.

a little up-front disclosure goes a long way in preventing the appearance of being partial. Lack of that disclosure combined with a one-sided and close-minded attitude towards alternatives ("WTF...WTFC") leaves a bad impression.

at no point have I said your type of training is bad. at no point have I said someone can learn it all from the games. at no point have I said or implied I know it all. I even agree that you're posting valuable info. notice I never even addressed the combat part, the 2nd half, of your first post; all I addressed was an alternative way for people to gain experience doing things like carrying stuff and opening doors safely.

-rvb

I apologize for that. I took for granted that the majority of the folks here knew me. I train LE, MIL and Police.

 

[TFin04]

ahh ha. The lightbulb just came on. After a quick search I now realize I've been sucked into an infomercial...

-rvb

What does it matter? The information contained within is still relevant. There are a lot of instructors on this board who own or work for for-profit companies.

I'm one too. Does that make you feel better?

 

[mercop]

Not a problem, I have contacted Fenway about advertising and a forum here for MCS. I have a pretty good following here so we need a place to talk about software.

Kinda like a mechanic giving you advice on your car and you saying "hey, that's not right, your a mechanic"

 

[EatMeerkats]

That is an interesting comparison, and one I thought about after you posted it. But I think I will have to respectfully disagree. Here's why:

You take someone who's never driven a car before and teach them to drive a 200mph IndyCar. They learn the fundamentals of the controls, as well as passing, drafting, braking, etc. You work with this person long enough, and you could turn out one awesome race car driver.

Now, take that race car driver, and put him in Ford Taurus in the middle of Fishers. Yes, he could drive that car as fast as it will go in his world, but now he has to deal with other drivers, traffic signals, crossing pedestrians, inclement weather-- which is, coincidentally, called "defensive driving". I don't think he would fare too well in this new world. Sure he can make the car perform, but that won't do any good if he keeps blowing through stop signs and running over small children.

Now let's carry this back over to the 'gun world':

The IDPA practitioner is the race car driver. He can shoot, and he can shoot fast and accurately. His draw is perfect, his stance is excellent, and he wastes no movement in his actions. He is, by all standards, a great shooter.

But put Mr. IDPA in line at the 7-11 when some thug bursts in and puts a gun to his face. Without proper tactics, his gun doesn't even enter the picture at this point. Even if he got himself into a position to draw, what about the child in his arms that he scooped up, or the door handle that he is desparately trying to get open?

Ah, but I'm sure it would be much easier to teach Mr. Race Car driver how to drive on the street than it would be to teach a new driver to do the same OR to teach a regular driver how to drive on a racetrack. Mastering the fundamentals of driving/shooting is the key becoming a good driver/shooter, and I just find it hard to believe that someone with a little tactical training and shooting instruction (i.e. Joe Cop) would be able to put up any kind of fight against someone with no tactical training but an extreme amount of shooting experience (i.e Joe Gamer) unless it were in extreme close quarters, where other techniques come in play. I do not say this to put down anybody, but I have seen average cops shoot USPSA, and they do so very safely, carefully, deliberately... and slowly. I feel very confident that I could take them on with Simunitions.

Shooting one handed or opening a door quickly and efficiently while holding a gun is a non-issue for any competitive shooter worth their salt. It is encountered all the time.

I do not question the value of the kind of instruction mercop and TFin04 provide, but saying that shooting games promote bad habits simply doesn't make sense to me. Does Michael Schumacher drive 200 mph after he leaves the race track? Just because you do it in competition doesn't mean you have to do it in the real world. If this were really the case, then somebody needs to tell Bob Vogel, the current USPSA Production champion. As a full-time police officer in Ohio, he is developing bad, bad habits that will get him killed at work...

 

[mercop]

Add callling 911 on your cell to the game or being punched in the face, or being rear ended to deploy your airbag before being car jacked and it will be realistic.

 

[notasccrmom]

Add callling 911 on your cell to the game or being punched in the face, or being rear ended to deploy your airbag before being car jacked and it will be realistic.

Not to get off track here, but if someone rear ends you to deploy your airbag in order to carjack you, they're about the dumbest car thief in the world...

As far as the others go, the cell phone gets taken out after the threat is handled, and a punch in the face... if I'm not knocked out, I just got one hell of an adrenaline dump. I can shoot on adrenaline. That gaming stuff got me used to that already.

 

[HICKMAN]

I've always thought it would be interesting to place a solid "practical shooter" (say, >= B class in USPSA) in an active shooter scenario against your run-of-the-mill cops (say, IUPD). I bet that a LOT of the cops would get hit first, simply because of the vastly superior skill level of the "gamer" who shoots every weekend and practices throughout the week. .

I'm guess that's why there are a lot of cops that shoot these matches, trigger time is trigger time.

How many cases have we seen where LOTS of shots were fired, with not many hits on the suspect.

Honestly, there is no reason that those two dudes in body armor in LA a few years back couldn't have been taken down with shots to the face with the 9mm pistols the cops had.

 

[HICKMAN]

If this were really the case, then somebody needs to tell Bob Vogel, the current USPSA Production champion. As a full-time police officer in Ohio, he is developing bad, bad habits that will get him killed at work...

Vogel is da man

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

Honestly, there is no reason that those two dudes in body armor in LA a few years back couldn't have been taken down with shots to the face with the 9mm pistols the cops had.

WARNING : I've always thought those two morons could have gotten away with it had they not chosen to wait for every cop in the county to show up .

 

[mercop]

I never understood why they did not fire at their ankles either. Unlike many situation lots of cops had cover and distance on their side.

 

[agentl074]

High stress events cause the shooter to fire according to training. This is why they changed the AFQC to include head shots for the M9 handgun. If the officer(s) broke out of the tunnel vision and placed shots in the unprotected areas... perhaps. Accurately placing marksmanship shots under stress is difficult—which is why most train under stress; however, precise shots at range on a moving target is easier to said than done....