Would You Fight For Your Country - Ref Obama Thread

[flagtag]

Not getting off that easy.

The national guard was sent to N.O. to collect the guns. They took them from every one. No warrant, no backround check. They were acting under orders.

Now, your country's leader orders you to go as a squad in uniform and get those guns. What are you going to do?


You are a local LEO, Sherrif's department, town or state police. Obama orders you to go get those guns. In uniform, official police business, no other warrant or law broken, they just decided and legally voted the law that says you are not allowed to have say a pump shotgun. Now it's your job to go get those shotguns they didn't turn in last week. What are you going to do?

The Federal (and many state laws) wasn't in effect then, so they probably didn't realize that the confiscation was illegal. Now, however, the news about the law forbidding confiscatio has been all over the media sources, so, if they chose to violate the Federal law, they could be held legally responsible for Felony theft of a Firearm. And for violating the laws and the Constitution.
Plus, they would have to live with the local citizens after the fact. There would be hell to pay! One way or another.

 

[flagtag]

I think you're all kidding yourselves if you think any police officer who isn't a gun person, and who doesn't have very strong feelings about the second amendment, would care one way or the other that a law was seemingly unconstitutional. If such a law were passed, it would be legal to confiscate your guns until the law was challenged in court and found to be unconstitutional and that's exactly what any police officer who wanted to keep their job would do, if ordered to do so.

Most LEOs are like most everyone else. They aren't gun enthusiasts and don't care one way or the other whether you get to keep your guns. But they will do their job and enforce the law as it's written by congress.

Do you think that the Federal (and state) law forbidding confiscation will be repealed?

 

[SavageEagle]

Our founding fathers had it just as bad. The mightiest ARMY and NAVY of the time was called upon to stop the revolution in the American colony. Those were armed, professional soldiers that the British had. Did that stop our founding fathers?

If they (ff) would have lost history would have said they were rebels/terrorist and not heros. But each and every one of them was willing to DIE for what they believed in. Now some 200 years later you must make that choice?

Yes but the British didn't have xray/infrared sats, tanks, 1500yrd snipers, or night vision. I'll die to make sure my kids are free, but I don't plan on dying until I see that day.

Do you think that the Federal (and state) law forbidding confiscation will be repealed?

I believe with the Dem's in control of the House, Senate, Prez, and SCOTUS, yes, it can happen.

 

[4sarge]

The Federal (and many state laws) wasn't in effect then, so they probably didn't realize that the confiscation was illegal. Now, however, the news about the law forbidding confiscatio has been all over the media sources, so, if they chose to violate the Federal law, they could be held legally responsible for Felony theft of a Firearm. And for violating the laws and the Constitution.
Plus, they would have to live with the local citizens after the fact. There would be hell to pay! One way or another.

That's why the use of the active duty Army and Not the National Guard. From the "Patriot" Shoot the officers first and the enlisted men may have a change of heart

 

[Disposable Heart]

Too many variables. It looked to be an extension of the last thread, but really isnt, onyl a hypothetical.

How would local rollers and guard people act in this scenario? We do not know for sure. People in history have said one thing, done another. Not saying that anyone specific would do that.

My answer is wait and see who the allies are. This is coming from the side of the "rebel" not the officers. I will not NOR cannot put myself in their mind set, given the day to day issues that they must cope with. That said, I do not believe it is accurate to then make a definite decision to calm one's mind as to the local mindset of a projected theoretical concept. Unfortunately, and being the thing that keeps me up at night (literally), this is an unpredicable and inevitable situation that would only bring one's mind to the brink of insanity, trying to draw battle lines and mark people as one way or another when the storm has not even shown up on radar.

I understand that it does ease some tension to think "who would be on our side" in such a theoretical situation. However, in the strategy of our lives (not tactics), the weighing and counterbalancing of unknowns and continously variable variables (had to do that once! ) will drive people mad OR (in my worst case fears) make people judgemental of one group or another. Let us pass judgement on those who act. I hold people accountable or commendable to their actions, not their plans. Ideas are a thin tissue, only to be reinfoced by the steel of action.

Just my two cents, PM me for angry comments or requests for address for lynchings

 

[VN Vet]

Our founding fathers had it just as bad. The mightiest ARMY and NAVY of the time was called upon to stop the revolution in the American colony. Those were armed, professional soldiers that the British had. Did that stop our founding fathers?

If they (ff) would have lost history would have said they were rebels/terrorist and not heros. But each and every one of them was willing to DIE for what they believed in. Now some 200 years later you must make that choice?

I will be one off you. I always loved playing Defense better than Offense. Bringing the Offensive Quarterback down was sooooo much fun. I loved doing it.

"Give me more Drill Sargent. Give me More". I was a Naval Officer so I was limited on Sargents. Marine Sargent, Whow they were hard, but Naval Chief Petty Officers? They tought me many things. But I have always loved the Marines and Army Grunts who taught me those words. Give me MORE Drill Sargent.

"Here is the line. You may come this far but no farther. Not now. Not today". "Stop before you are hurt". Another statement I have heard and love.

Ever try the words "Please Stop" to a person out to hurt you. Doesn't work. I do not think in our World Today will never work.

 

[Mr.Hoppes]

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/promos/never.jpg

 

[agentl074]

I would refuse to obey an unlawful order.
Not gonna bet on it, but I believe many cops/soldiers would do the same.

Yes Sir! That would be an unlawful order. Those who order it would be committing treason … on duty personnel would be obligated to order that traitor to cease and desist – place that Officer/NCO under apprehension for an unlawful order.

They would be "jacked up" in Military LEO slang

 

[flagtag]

Yes Sir! That would be an unlawful order. Those who order it would be committing treason … on duty personnel would be obligated to order that traitor to cease and desist – place that Officer/NCO under apprehension for an unlawful order.

They would be "jacked up" in Military LEO slang

Yep! You can push only so far before it blows up in your face. Some would find out the hard way.

 

[dburkhead]

There was a rumor about 12 years or so ago that said our military was training on vidio games that had them shooting American Looking people. This was rumored as being done to get the troops accustomed to shooting peope that looked American. While I do not know if this rumor is or was true, it is a scary thought that our government would order open fire on American Citizens.

Our government ordered that we had to kill our fellow Americans in the 1860's and if History does repeat itself, we will have to do it again. If we did not learn something from the 1860's we will be forced to repeat those times. Today we have the means to kill more effectively and more completely.

I happen to hang out on another forum where there are a lot of current and former military hanging out (including recently retired). The video game thing is unlikely to be of much effect.

One thing military people--at least as they start advancing in the NCO ranks--is what constitutes and illegal order and the strong emphasis that illegal orders are not to be obeyed (illegal being defined in terms of the Laws of War, the Constitution, and the UCMJ). While it is possible to find a few "bad apples" who would carry out illegal attacks on Americans, they would be in the distinct minority and would likely trigger reaction by other units not so inclined. (And please don't go into Gitmo, the Patriot Act, or related issues since the situation there is quite a bit more complicated than I am willing to go into here. Suffice it to say that the situation as portrayed in the media is _not_ a good reflection of reality.)

I'd be much more afraid of a "civilian security force, just as strong, just as powerful, and just as well funded [as the US Military]".

 

[Marc]

im ready to fight... there are 5 things i know how to do, sleep, eat, make babies, shoot, and blow **** up

 

[dburkhead]

The Federal (and many state laws) wasn't in effect then, so they probably didn't realize that the confiscation was illegal. Now, however, the news about the law forbidding confiscatio has been all over the media sources, so, if they chose to violate the Federal law, they could be held legally responsible for Felony theft of a Firearm. And for violating the laws and the Constitution.
Plus, they would have to live with the local citizens after the fact. There would be hell to pay! One way or another.

One thing to note is that the National Guard is a special case. When not Federalized, they are an agent of the state rather than the federal government and, as such, are not covered by things like posse commitatus.

I'm not even sure (given the rather "limited" interpretation that the courts give the 2nd Amendment these days) that the confiscation was illegal (stupid, pointless, and wrongheaded, yes, but illegal? Statute, please). Governors generally have pretty broad powers in an emergency--the same powers that let them order evacuations, for example.

 

[jeremy]

I'd be much more afraid of a "civilian security force, just as strong, just as powerful, and just as well funded [as the US Military]".

You mean like the Blackwater... There are actually several merc units (oops my bad security contractors) in the employ of the state dept or dod.

 

[dburkhead]

You mean like the Blackwater... There are actually several merc units (oops my bad security contractors) in the employ of the state dept or dod.

No, not like Blackwater. As far as the US is concerned they are civilians with zero governmental authority. Furthermore, they are not, within several orders of magnitude, "just as strong, just as powerful, and just as well funded [as the US Military]".

Nice try at a comparison, but it fails.

 

[flagtag]

One thing to note is that the National Guard is a special case. When not Federalized, they are an agent of the state rather than the federal government and, as such, are not covered by things like posse commitatus.

I'm not even sure (given the rather "limited" interpretation that the courts give the 2nd Amendment these days) that the confiscation was illegal (stupid, pointless, and wrongheaded, yes, but illegal? Statute, please). Governors generally have pretty broad powers in an emergency--the same powers that let them order evacuations, for example.

Ok, how could it have been legal if it violates the rights of the people? And the Constitution? The citizens weren't criminals, weren't breaking any laws. How could it be justified? It's not like they would be used on law enforcement or emergency personnel. They just wanted to protect themselves, their families, and their property.
What justification did the Mayor/Governor use to steal the guns?

 

[flagtag]

No, not like Blackwater. As far as the US is concerned they are civilians with zero governmental authority. Furthermore, they are not, within several orders of magnitude, "just as strong, just as powerful, and just as well funded [as the US Military]".

Nice try at a comparison, but it fails.

Whether they are or not, they would be "working" for money to violate the rights of the people.
I would not feel guilty about defending my rights, life, property against them. In fact I would prefer it if they used instead of our military. There is something about fighting with our service personnel I don't like.

 

[agentl074]

One thing to note is that the National Guard is a special case. When not Federalized, they are an agent of the state rather than the federal government and, as such, are not covered by things like posse commitatus.

I'm not even sure (given the rather "limited" interpretation that the courts give the 2nd Amendment these days) that the confiscation was illegal (stupid, pointless, and wrongheaded, yes, but illegal? Statute, please). Governors generally have pretty broad powers in an emergency--the same powers that let them order evacuations, for example.

However, they are still under civil control.

 

[jeremy]

I have been deployed in the same missions as them before and let me tell you brother they got some cooool toys. They are actually VERY well funded.

The point is that they and others like them do exist in the employ of the gov for the ops that the military will probably have a legal issue with or that the gov needs plausible denial ability on. They is not a whole h*ll of a lot that those boys will not do for money.

 

[SavageEagle]

No, not like Blackwater. As far as the US is concerned they are civilians with zero governmental authority. Furthermore, they are not, within several orders of magnitude, "just as strong, just as powerful, and just as well funded [as the US Military]".

Nice try at a comparison, but it fails.

So what are you talking about then? A small well funded Army raised by the Messiah? Or a private "Nazi SS" type force that he keeps well hid? Or a rogue Platoon being paid as mercs?

 

[dclaarjr]

If something happens that would cause a civil war, there is something you need to consider. How many of our young men and women do you think would be willing to kill their families, friends and neighbors. I believe that most would switch sides and bring everything they could with them.