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Would you intervene in an armed robbery?
- Thread starter Robertpetry
- Start date
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This actually happened to a guy I worked with at my first job when I was 15. He didn't fire on the BG but he was at the old Dons Guns in Greenwood at closing time. A guy comes in to rob the place, Steve pulled his firearm and commanded the BG to drop his gun and get on the ground. He did, then his brother who was outside opened him up with a 12 ga. He died at the scene. Oddly enough, I knew the kid who came in to rob the place but didn't know his brother.
As for me, I'm taking cover and watching. If I can draw I will. If the bad gets money and high tails it, I'm a good witness. If he lingers for even a moment and I have a shot, I would take it and assume he's contemplating shooting the clerk.
That's why I carry 2 .45s. Full service, no waiting. If I was afraid of getting shot I wouldn't carry weapons and be prepared to use them. Maybe it will do the death spiral into a knife fight and hand to hand...wouldn't change my decision.
OK, to elaborate, I would only if I was in danger directly. Otherwise I would likely get out of the area, on't want to be around when the shooting starts and catch a stray round. It isn't my job to stop a robbery and unless I was able to get a cler shot or if I was in the stoe prior to the police arrival and it appeared the guy was going to shoot the clerk or had already shot him/her, I wouldn't shoot the BG just to stop the robbery.
Once the guns are out of their holsters that is the only fact you have. You can not determine intent beyond the fact that it was bad to start with when they pulled it out. You do not know that they will not shoot the clerk, you, everyone you know. All you know is that a now visibly violent criminal has pulled out his shooter. I would prefer to act upon the reality I see not the perception I would wish to will into the already over the line criminals head.
Once the weapon is out and being used in the commission of a crime they've already crossed all my red lines. I have to assume the longer I wait the worse it will get. Giving up any tactical advantage you have by wasting time only decreases the chance that you could have made a difference.
As has been said many times in other threads though...do what you are comfortable doing. If herding people into the bathroom seems like a viable option then go all sheep dog.
Once the weapon is out and being used in the commission of a crime they've already crossed all my red lines. I have to assume the longer I wait the worse it will get. Giving up any tactical advantage you have by wasting time only decreases the chance that you could have made a difference.
As has been said many times in other threads though...do what you are comfortable doing. If herding people into the bathroom seems like a viable option then go all sheep dog.
Im inclined to believe as Thor states above. Once the perp draws a weapon, if I'm in the position to do so, I'm likely going to take swift and decisive action.
If you were the clerk you would be legal to shoot in self defense by the mere presence of the weapon being pointed at you. As a third party, you're covered under the same assumptions. IMO.
Now, my intent is to always return home safely to my family. I'm not a cop, nor a hero, so as others have said there are some variables that would need to be clearer for me to be exact. Those will only come from being there!
If you were the clerk you would be legal to shoot in self defense by the mere presence of the weapon being pointed at you. As a third party, you're covered under the same assumptions. IMO.
Now, my intent is to always return home safely to my family. I'm not a cop, nor a hero, so as others have said there are some variables that would need to be clearer for me to be exact. Those will only come from being there!
My mental planning is for only defending myself and my family. Having said that, I do realize a situation may arise that compels me to make a moral choice to help someone else. I try to prepare for
1) considering the possibility that the apparent "perp" is really some kind of LEO or that the apparent victim is part of the confrontation that is occurring. If either of these things seems plausible, I'm staying out of it if I can
2) does the perp have an accomplice? If that looks reasonable, it's another reason to avoid confrontation
I do agree (morally and legally) with those who assume the perp pointing the gun is willing to use it. Once he has went that far, I'm not going to second-guess the outcome. That's what makes it so hard to decide. It's easy to talk about the intelligent choice of not risking your legal and financial future for a stranger, but can you cope with having watched someone die and knowing you could have stopped it?
No easy answers.
1) considering the possibility that the apparent "perp" is really some kind of LEO or that the apparent victim is part of the confrontation that is occurring. If either of these things seems plausible, I'm staying out of it if I can
2) does the perp have an accomplice? If that looks reasonable, it's another reason to avoid confrontation
I do agree (morally and legally) with those who assume the perp pointing the gun is willing to use it. Once he has went that far, I'm not going to second-guess the outcome. That's what makes it so hard to decide. It's easy to talk about the intelligent choice of not risking your legal and financial future for a stranger, but can you cope with having watched someone die and knowing you could have stopped it?
No easy answers.
Wow. I went away for a few hours and 3+ pages of really good dialog popped up. Thank you all.
To some these made up scenarios may seem pointless but I really wouldn't want to go through this thought process in the instant that I had to make a decision. Certainly all actual encounters would be different and require thought and decisions but it helps tremendously to have a reasoned and decided disposition and framework to apply.
My my first reaction is to play what I think are the odds and stay out of it. But if the perp seemed pretty anxious and out of control and I had a clear shot it would be really tempting to make sure the clerk was safe and one less violent criminal was walking the streets.
One concern through, if he is pointing a gun at the clerk and I hit him in the back with an initial .380 or 9mm round will he pull the trigger and maybe hit the clerk or a bystander? That seems like a real risk. I could make sure he received 3-4 rounds and was out of commission pretty quickly but he would still have an instant to get off a shot.
Carrying is a big responsibility and these things need to be considered.
To some these made up scenarios may seem pointless but I really wouldn't want to go through this thought process in the instant that I had to make a decision. Certainly all actual encounters would be different and require thought and decisions but it helps tremendously to have a reasoned and decided disposition and framework to apply.
My my first reaction is to play what I think are the odds and stay out of it. But if the perp seemed pretty anxious and out of control and I had a clear shot it would be really tempting to make sure the clerk was safe and one less violent criminal was walking the streets.
One concern through, if he is pointing a gun at the clerk and I hit him in the back with an initial .380 or 9mm round will he pull the trigger and maybe hit the clerk or a bystander? That seems like a real risk. I could make sure he received 3-4 rounds and was out of commission pretty quickly but he would still have an instant to get off a shot.
Carrying is a big responsibility and these things need to be considered.
Thank you cosermann. That was a good and thoughtful read. It reinforces my initial inclination to stay out of most situations if at all possible. The consequences can be devistating no matter how things turn out.
Lots to think about.
Robert,
Welcome to INGO!
For this situation I am more likely to protect me and mine and maybe consider intervening if it were escalating. Now mind you I will have pissed myself prior so who knows?
Oh and I have been robbed at gunpoint 3 times in my life ( Pizza Manager, Detroit burbs....). Was once herded into the back of the pizza place with 4 others. I was 24 or so and said to my crew "If you see the muzzle rush him. He can't get us all" Dude ended up getting busted cause he hit on a girl with the loot in hand. She id'd him as the guy taking of the the jacket and mask and ditching the paper bag with our logo that had the money.
As for your question in the post above; remember, a 9mm will kill the body. But the .45 kills the soul....
(sorry Colin)
If I have to pull my firearm against another person with a firearm, the last damn thing I'm going to do is attempt to talk them down. They are already of the mind to shoot someone, otherwise they wouldn't have a gun in their hand.
Also there's no telling what a gas station attendant may do to possibly escalate the situation and make it spiral out of control.
So in short, unless me or mine are in immediate danger, No. I will not intervene.
Lawyers are damned expensive, and are generally required after a gun fight.
Also there's no telling what a gas station attendant may do to possibly escalate the situation and make it spiral out of control.
So in short, unless me or mine are in immediate danger, No. I will not intervene.
Lawyers are damned expensive, and are generally required after a gun fight.
Even if you read a report that stated the percentages would you be willing to roll those dice?
If the chances were say 70/30; 30% of the time you end up 100% shot.
I'm with you on this. He's threatening someone else's life and could be threatening mine very shortly. How do I know whether he'll leave without shooting someone? How do I know he won't shoot the clerk, me and others as he leaves? The best time to shoot a guy who needs shooting is when he is not pointing a gun at you.
Am I supposed to wait for him to point the gun at me before I do anything? Seems tactically....stupid.
...but in the end, without being in the situation, you never know which of a thousand variables may be present.
