Would you intervene in an armed robbery?

[dusty88]

My simple plan is to order him face down on the floor then straddle him horse back style with my piece pressed against the base of his scull and wait for the cops. I'll already have instructed the manager of the store to stand next to me to identify me when John Law shows up. Of course while sitting there I'd be alert for any covert buddies he might have in the store.

I'm amateur and ignorant in this regard but just for the sake of conversation/question.....

when we took the NRA home defense course, the LEO that taught the class suggested that if we ever did find ourselves in the situation of having to detain a perp while waiting for LEO that we

maintain distance
don't let them start a conversation with you (and attempt to gain sympathy)
insist they stay face down with legs and arms spread wide (so they can't get to any weapons nor get up)

Whether he was 100% correct, and whether I could ever be in that situation, I don't know. But I am thinking I'm not getting close enough to sit on them, which just invites combat. If truly stuck in that situation, I'm thinking they are going to have to understand that if they try to get up, I have to shoot them for my own protection.

Right/Wrong? (note I am 50 yr old female. While I'm in better than average physical condition, I simply don't imagine many perps with a body type that I can control physically)

 

[VUPDblue]

People who rob are generally not the "follow orders" type. Ordering them to do anything, even at weaponpoint, likely will not work. Us "normal" folk who think of giving in to someone's commands are out of touch with the violent thug life. Think of it like this: if the thug ordered you to put down your gun, would you?

 

[mbills2223]

People who rob are generally not the "follow orders" type. Ordering them to do anything, even at weaponpoint, likely will not work. Us "normal" folk who think of giving in to someone's commands are out of touch with the violent thug life. Think of it like this: if the thug ordered you to put down your gun, would you?

Of course I would put down my gun...after I neutralized the threat or escaped the situation.

 

[CTS]

So, in that situation, I would have my family move to the coolers away from the perp, maybe into the bathrooms if they can do so without becoming victims. I would then, put one in the base of his skull because a forcible felony is a justifiable reason in Indiana with IC35-41-3. The base of his skull, because I don't want anybody causing harm to the attendant after the action occurs. The attendants life and mine were the only ones in jeopardy, so I wouldn't want an errant round taking out anyone else or causing harm to the attendant. There is no center of mass clause for defense in Indiana, so that is also why I say that. Lastly, the chances of recovery from that wound put it right into the no more crime files. It's a bit difficult to judge what would actually happen, until it does, but that is one of the scenarios we need to be mindful of. A robbery, in any stage, is a justifiable use of deadly force in Indiana. In public, in the defense of myself, of my family, of a third party, anywhere I have a legal right to be. So, my question is, if you carry concealed or open, why wouldn't you protect an innocent bystander with deadly force? Isn't this the whole reason law abiding gun owners carry guns?

So your decision to shoot and shot placement have entirely to do with what the law says and not what's you believe to be the most effective way to end the situation with the least amount of violence you believe necessary to save life. You're going to shoot someone "because it's legal to." I sure hope you're never in a self defense situation and have an enterprising prosecutor who finds this post.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

So your decision to shoot and shot placement have entirely to do with what the law says and not what's you believe to be the most effective way to end the situation with the least amount of violence you believe necessary to save life. You're going to shoot someone "because it's legal to." I sure hope you're never in a self defense situation and have an enterprising prosecutor who finds this post.

If you've never shot a human being, you've never had to make a decision to shoot based on what the Prosecutor or Grand Jury is going to think of you. At least in a non-combat situation.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Some general reminders, unrelated to any particular event.

Surprise is your friend. Being surprised is not. OODA loop is real, folks, if someone doesn't know you're a threat until you've hurt them you're probably going to win.

A good shoot is a good shoot, people are not held in jail while its investigated, and talking to the police is not always a bad idea.

Malfunctions at the range are a nuisance. Malfunctions during a real gun fight can be a real problem. Guns sometimes sustain damage, hampering their operation. You may not have the chance to get to a backup if that occurs, but if you don't have one to get to, then your chances are 0% of getting to it.

Have a plan before you need a plan. Be prepared to identify yourself to the police and to follow commands.

 

[AA&E]

If I have to pull my firearm against another person with a firearm, the last damn thing I'm going to do is attempt to talk them down. They are already of the mind to shoot someone, otherwise they wouldn't have a gun in their hand.

Also there's no telling what a gas station attendant may do to possibly escalate the situation and make it spiral out of control.

So in short, unless me or mine are in immediate danger, No. I will not intervene.

Lawyers are damned expensive, and are generally required after a gun fight.

All very valid points. My only exception to the above is I was raised to believe in standing up to fight for those incapable of fighting for themselves. I think it applies here. While I wouldn't intentionally stand in front of a bullet in such a scenario, you are already in harms way merely by being present. If as stated, and I am behind and can draw without being seen... this guy is on the ground and half way to hell before he figures out what just happened.

My personal experience has lead me to believe the only appropriate response to an act of aggression such as this is an extremely violent response. I've been in bad situations and tried to talk my way out, or talk down a bad guy (I was unarmed)... don't do this. Fight like you are a cornered animal with life hanging in the balance. Talk and indecision makes you an easy target.

 

[AA&E]

I'm with you on this. He's threatening someone else's life and could be threatening mine very shortly. How do I know whether he'll leave without shooting someone? How do I know he won't shoot the clerk, me and others as he leaves? The best time to shoot a guy who needs shooting is when he is not pointing a gun at you.

Am I supposed to wait for him to point the gun at me before I do anything? Seems tactically....stupid.

...but in the end, without being in the situation, you never know which of a thousand variables may be present.

I agree. Once he kills someone you became a witness to felony murder. Think leaving you alive serves his interests?

 

[AA&E]

Say the guy successfully robs the store and leaves. Do you just awkwardly walk up to the counter and pay for your Big Gulp? Do you pay a little more?

"WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU DONT HAVE CHANGE FOR A TWENTY?"

LMAO!!!

Oh god, that right there was funny!!

 

[AA&E]

I've heard as soon as I rack the slide on my Mossberg the bad guy will pee his pants, faint, have a heart attack, and flee. In that order.

Or, I should use an all steel .45 because even if I miss the guy, the .45 round will suck out his soul as it flies by.

I've tried carrying my Mossberg 500 concealed, but it prints considerably and I get weird looks.

 

[dusty88]

People who rob are generally not the "follow orders" type. Ordering them to do anything, even at weaponpoint, likely will not work. Us "normal" folk who think of giving in to someone's commands are out of touch with the violent thug life. Think of it like this: if the thug ordered you to put down your gun, would you?

Yeah, good point and good phrasing. BTW, I don't think the instructor was suggesting we detain a perp as a matter of good planning. I think it was under the "you've caught someone in your house and they might stand there and try to work their way closer to you while trying to get sympathy". He was emphasizing that if you are holding them: don't get close, don't let them move, make sure their hands can't get near anything.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

I've tried carrying my Mossberg 500 concealed, but it prints considerably and I get weird looks.

I believe that the punch line to this joke is: "You're supposed to put it in the FRONT of your pants..."

 

[Alamo]

People who rob are generally not the "follow orders" type. Ordering them to do anything, even at weaponpoint, likely will not work. Us "normal" folk who think of giving in to someone's commands are out of touch with the violent thug life. Think of it like this: if the thug ordered you to put down your gun, would you?

Sort of an example: TexasCHLforum.com ? View topic - I STOPPED A ROBBERY LAST NIGHT

Also illustrates other issues touched on here.

 

[FireBirdDS]

Hells ya! Free back shoot! Not often you gotta whack a b**ch in the back! Actually, the answer is, it depends!

We all play these scenarios out in our heads, thinking through all the "what ifs" we could conjure and what we think we would or would "like" to do. My hope, like most of you, is that I never have to find out for real.

That being said, should any of us commenting get swept into one and end up doing exactly what we said we'd "like" to do on a public forum, that would be some low-hanging fruit for some overzealous prosecutor. Just saying...

 

[cooltools]

The trouble with " ordering him to stop " and not just shooting him is his ability to pull the trigger first.

 

[dusty88]

Sort of an example: TexasCHLforum.com ? View topic - I STOPPED A ROBBERY LAST NIGHT

Also illustrates other issues touched on here.

Yes it does.

I applaud the man for handling the situation safely and for sharing his story. For the sake of learning, I wonder what others think of the specifics. Once the perp was told he would be shot if he got up, and he got up anyway, it seems to me that the situation got more dangerous. At that point, he had bystanders in the immediate background.

I also have to think that any warnings you give had better be sincere. It's like dealing with kids; once they find out you don't mean it, your further warnings are useless.

 

[Yup!]

Yes it does.

I applaud the man for handling the situation safely and for sharing his story. For the sake of learning, I wonder what others think of the specifics. Once the perp was told he would be shot if he got up, and he got up anyway, it seems to me that the situation got more dangerous. At that point, he had bystanders in the immediate background.

I also have to think that any warnings you give had better be sincere. It's like dealing with kids; once they find out you don't mean it, your further warnings are useless.

i though the same thing after reading that entire thread. Not to arm chair quarterback, but in his mind, once the perp was on the ground and disarmed, he no longer felt the perp was a threat. When in reality he is more of a threat when you're holding him at gunpoint because he now has more reason to fight YOU. Before you put him on the ground he didn't have a clear target as to who he needed to fight for escape.

im glad it turned out ok, but it was more dangerous towards the end. It's a good read.

 

[mrortega]

"WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU DONT HAVE CHANGE FOR A TWENTY?"

Quit it! I almost choked on my breakfast LMAO!!

 

[mrortega]

What if he doesn't comply with your order? Now what?

The question seemed to imply that the perp was surrendering and how would he be restrained not how a person would subdue him.

 

[mrortega]

I've tried carrying my Mossberg 500 concealed, but it prints considerably and I get weird looks.

Try moving it around to the front next time!
Dang, Armedprogramer. You beat me to it.