Carry at an establishment that serves alcohol

[singlestacksig]

With all due respect, I get so tired of hearing the "if you can responsibly drink than you can (insert here)" argument. That's the same argument you hear about driving under the influence. There's no way around it, your ability to make decisions, your reflexes, judgement, etc. are affected when you drink.

Your last statement, "I personally think people who can't drink and carry a gun shouldn't be carrying a gun when sober either" is utterly ridiculous. I, and most people, CAN do almost ANYTHING while drinking. CAN and SHOULD are two different things.

you can have very valid reasons for your opinion, but the state should not reduce someones rights just because they choose to drink..
There is proof that driving while drinking can kill people..
there is very little proof that some drinking will impair a person to such a state that they should be stripped of the right of defense..

 

[Bigum1969]

you can have very valid reasons for your opinion, but the state should not reduce someones rights just because they choose to drink..
There is proof that driving while drinking can kill people..
there is very little proof that some drinking will impair a person to such a state that they should be stripped of the right of defense..

I'm not talking about the state or government reducing our rights, I'm talking about personal responsibility-- two different things.

 

[Prometheus]

With all due respect, I get so tired of hearing the "if you can responsibly drink than you can (insert here)" argument. That's the same argument you hear about driving under the influence. There's no way around it, your ability to make decisions, your reflexes, judgement, etc. are affected when you drink.

The ability to make decisions based on things such as speed, timing and perception - as in is that car 100 yards away or 100 feet, which pedal is the brake, is that one set of head lights or two... are completely different.

Only an idiot would trying and make the leap from "a person who's had a few beers is slower on reflexes and perception" to "a person who has had a few drinks cannot tell if the rapist is sticking it in their %^&*# versus their %^&*#. Seriously man, how much are you drinking that you can't tell when you are in actual fear of imminent life or great bodily harm?

Your last statement, "I personally think people who can't drink and carry a gun shouldn't be carrying a gun when sober either" is utterly ridiculous.

It is completely true. If you know you get that way when drinking you shouldn't be drinking at all. You could easily grab a knife, chair, broken beer bottle, pool cue ect. I think you take offense to what I say because it's true and directly applies to you. Look how you try and justify yourself:

I, and most people, CAN do almost ANYTHING while drinking. CAN and SHOULD are two different things.

Most people? Most people? Sorry "most people" I know don't turn into raging serial killers or thugs when they have a few (or even several) drinks.

I've never done anything drunk I wouldn't have done sober. Sure I may have been a bit bolder about it, but I still didn't turn into some sort of homicidal maniac.

If you got these sorts of issues with alcohol you need help. You also should own a gun if you can't control yourself and stay away from the bottle. THAT is why I said people who can't control themselves with a gun while drinking shouldn't have a gun while sober.

Total lack of self control (as your alcoholism implies) lends itself to the rest of your life as well. I've never met an alcoholic who had any decent judgment when sober let alone while they were drunk.

 

[dice dealer]

Easy for me i quit drinking years ago ....

 

[turnandshoot4]

I have quit drinking thousands of times.

Everytime I finish one

 

[sloughfoot]

Yes, I will carry in a place that serves alcohol. I just won't sit playing poker with my back to the door. I always insist that I sit with my back to the wall so I can see who is coming or going. Bill Hickok violated that rule.

Get real guys. You don't know how many of the people coming and going in the bar have knives, guns, or whatever. Or the armed robber that comes in....

It is a dangerous world. Be ready at all times. Accept the consequences if you make the wrong choice. Surround yourself with friends that can watch your back and you can watch theirs..especially in a dangerous, potentially volatile place like a bar. If you choose to go to one.

 

[JcJ]

Easy for me i quit drinking years ago ....

+1

 

[Bill of Rights]

I simply cannot agree with you. At all.
...
I grew up in South Florida. I partied. A lot. I was always armed (which isn't legal in Florida if you are in a place that derives more than 50% of it's income from the sale of alcohol). No drugs, but I would drink. My wife (then girl friend and later fiancee) insisted I carry. One of the reasons I fell for her as hard as I did.

...

Just because we enjoyed dancing and hanging out with friends... does that mean we deserved to be robbed or murdered because people like you don't think we should be allowed to defend ourselves? I also refused to stay at home and let the criminals win by keeping us from going out and enjoying ourselves.

Sorry but it comes down to personal responsibility. If you can responsibly drink and carry a firearm. Good for you. If you can't, don't!

I personally think people who can't drink and carry a gun shouldn't be carrying a gun when sober either. If they have that little self control... well, the booze is being used as an excuse, it's not the cause.

Prometheus,

I'm a little confused here. You start off upset at Mrs.Hoppes because she said not that people shouldn't be able to, but rather that her opinion was that it was unwise to carry in a situation such as she described, but then at the end of your note, you said that your opinion is that people who can't drink and carry should be disarmed all the time... (including if, like me, they've made the choice not to drink? (for the record, mine had nothing to do with that, I simply chose not to do so))

The way I read your note, "people like you" (as you said to her) would include people like you (Prometheus), justification for which I cannot understand, considering that in your post, you admitted to carrying where forbidden. Is that a felony in FL? If so, you've just admitted to having committed a crime that could cost you your ability to lawfully exercise your rights under the 2A, which is hardly the position from which to be saying that someone who drinks too much should be forcibly disarmed
(by government?)

I'm really not trying to come down on you here, but I'd like to see how you resolve the apparent discrepancies I pointed out, within your own mind.

Blessings,
B

 

[Bigum1969]

The ability to make decisions based on things such as speed, timing and perception - as in is that car 100 yards away or 100 feet, which pedal is the brake, is that one set of head lights or two... are completely different.

Only an idiot would trying and make the leap from "a person who's had a few beers is slower on reflexes and perception" to "a person who has had a few drinks cannot tell if the rapist is sticking it in their %^&*# versus their %^&*#. Seriously man, how much are you drinking that you can't tell when you are in actual fear of imminent life or great bodily harm?



It is completely true. If you know you get that way when drinking you shouldn't be drinking at all. You could easily grab a knife, chair, broken beer bottle, pool cue ect. I think you take offense to what I say because it's true and directly applies to you. Look how you try and justify yourself:


Most people? Most people? Sorry "most people" I know don't turn into raging serial killers or thugs when they have a few (or even several) drinks.

I've never done anything drunk I wouldn't have done sober. Sure I may have been a bit bolder about it, but I still didn't turn into some sort of homicidal maniac.

If you got these sorts of issues with alcohol you need help. You also should own a gun if you can't control yourself and stay away from the bottle. THAT is why I said people who can't control themselves with a gun while drinking shouldn't have a gun while sober.

Total lack of self control (as your alcoholism implies) lends itself to the rest of your life as well. I've never met an alcoholic who had any decent judgment when sober let alone while they were drunk.

Why is it that you have to make a giant leap to a personal attack? I drink maybe five times a year. We don't even have alcohol in the house. It's just not my wife and I's thing.

You say:

If you got these sorts of issues with alcohol you need help. You also should own a gun if you can't control yourself and stay away from the bottle. THAT is why I said people who can't control themselves with a gun while drinking shouldn't have a gun while sober.

Total lack of self control (as your alcoholism implies) lends itself to the rest of your life as well. I've never met an alcoholic who had any decent judgment when sober let alone while they were drunk

Wow. I've now got issues with alcohol and total lack of self control (as you say my "alcoholism" implies).

I don't think having this debate with you is a good idea. You miss most of what I'm trying to say and pounce with personal attacks.

 

[Prometheus]

Is that a felony in FL? If so, you've just admitted to having committed a crime that could cost you your ability to lawfully exercise your rights under the 2A, which is hardly the position from which to be saying that someone who drinks too much should be forcibly disarmed
(by government?)

With a license carry into a prohibited place like a bar is a 3rd degree misdemeanor (might be a 2nd degree) and you lose your CWL. It would be a 3rd degree felony if you didn't have a CWL.

As far as admitting to a crime? Whats your point? Statute of limitations would be up from the last time I visited Florida anyway (if they could even prove where I was and last time I went I didn't even go into a bar). You mean to tell me you haven't admitted to committing a victimless crime years after the fact?

As to the last part of your quote, I never said the government should forcefully disarm them.

 

[Bill of Rights]

With a license carry into a prohibited place like a bar is a 3rd degree misdemeanor (might be a 2nd degree) and you lose your CWL. It would be a 3rd degree felony if you didn't have a CWL.

As far as admitting to a crime? Whats your point? Statute of limitations would be up from the last time I visited Florida anyway (if they could even prove where I was and last time I went I didn't even go into a bar). You mean to tell me you haven't admitted to committing a victimless crime years after the fact?

As to the last part of your quote, I never said the government should forcefully disarm them.

My point? Statute of limitations notwithstanding, you knowingly violated the law in a way that, if caught, would have cost you your CWL. That kinda goes against the whole "law-abiding, responsible gun owner" thing, doesn't it?
Have I admitted to a victimless crime years afterward? Perhaps. Honestly, I don't recall any I've committed, short of speeding... but then, I'm not advocating speeders be denied the ability to lawfully drive cars, either.

True, you didn't say gov't should do the disarming, which is why I asked. You said that those who have that much problem with drinking shouldn't carry a firearm sober, either. Were you just saying your thoughts (i.e. "spitballing") or what you'd like to see laws to make happen? How would you go about ensuring that those particular people not be armed even when sober?

I also didn't see your answer regarding Mrs. Hoppes' comment vs. your own.

Blessings,
B

 

[Prometheus]

My point? Statute of limitations notwithstanding, you knowingly violated the law in a way that, if caught, would have cost you your CWL. That kinda goes against the whole "law-abiding, responsible gun owner" thing, doesn't it?
Have I admitted to a victimless crime years afterward? Perhaps. Honestly, I don't recall any I've committed, short of speeding... but then, I'm not advocating speeders be denied the ability to lawfully drive cars, either.

I don't recall ever saying "law abiding" I said "responsible". I can be completely responsible in a library with a gun. If I were to be just as responsible with that firearm in a hammond public library I'd be breaking the law. I'd still be just as responsible, even though I'd be breaking some inane city ordinance.

True, you didn't say gov't should do the disarming, which is why I asked. You said that those who have that much problem with drinking shouldn't carry a firearm sober, either. Were you just saying your thoughts (i.e. "spitballing") or what you'd like to see laws to make happen? How would you go about ensuring that those particular people not be armed even when sober?

I don't want to see ANY new laws regarding firearms. In fact I'd like to see most of them repealed.

I also didn't see your answer regarding Mrs. Hoppes' comment vs. your own.

Blessings,
B

I made it in my quote of her statement.

 

[Bill of Rights]

I don't recall ever saying "law abiding" I said "responsible". I can be completely responsible in a library with a gun. If I were to be just as responsible with that firearm in a hammond public library I'd be breaking the law. I'd still be just as responsible, even though I'd be breaking some inane city ordinance.


I don't want to see ANY new laws regarding firearms. In fact I'd like to see most of them repealed.


I made it in my quote of her statement.

I don't agree with a lot of the laws out there. That doesn't mean I knowingly, intentionally violate them. I find ways around them or I avoid the situation involved. That means I avoid the Hammond Public Library if there is some law prohibiting me from exercising my rights while there, until such time as that law no longer makes that prohibition. The fact that the ordinance is inane does not make it any less enforceable, and by getting your LTCH revoked for being caught carrying there (maybe you hit your head on a bookshelf and your firearm becomes exposed, for example) and you've just become a statistic-one more revoked license (however few there are that are revoked for cause.) One more gun owner who can be pointed to as disregarding laws. This is not what we need, and will do nothing toward getting those laws with which you disagree repealed.

Rephrase: You quoted Mrs. Hoppes. I saw that, where you then chastised her for saying she didn't think it was the most intelligent move to be armed in a place such as she described. Not that anyone should or should not be armed, just that to be so in that situation, she thought was less than intelligent. Conversely, you came out and said that there were some people (not criminals) you thought should not be armed, even when sober. I don't see why she deserved to be chastised in your eyes when your own statement was IMHO, far more intrusive and overbearing. It is that discrepancy I did not see you address. Would you please clarify?

Thanks and Blessings,
B

 

[cce1302]

I don't drink, so I always carry when I'm in places that serve alcohol. If I did drink, I would not carry while drinking.

 

[rmcrob]

Another advantage of teetotalism. I haven't found a disadvantage yet.

 

[kludge]

I don't drink either. I don't frequent bars.

I do go to bars occasionally with co-workers if it is a work related funtion (but not if its just to drink). I go to a Buffalo Wild Wings (which has a bar) with my Jeep club.

Occasionally I will take my family to a restaurant that has a bar, but never to a place where people "go to drink" i.e. Champs, Benchwarmers, and the aformentioned Buffalo Wild Wings.

I would carry in a bar as easily as I would carry anywhere else, and I would sooner trust a person with a LTCH at a bar with a gun, even if he/she has a drink than the people who don't have a LTCH and carry anyway... a law against it won't ever change the fact that people w/o a license are there and armed, even if it's not with a gun.

I leave if/when I see people who start having more than a drink or two with dinner.

 

[cox7215]

I have on my ankle, but I never had a drink........R It I was going ot drink it went back in the car...... R

 

[USMC_0311]

I carry and drink, drink and carry. Use caution with me always, drinking or carrying. Best thing about drinking and shooting, is as soon as you finish a beer you got a new target.


Once again folks I kind of got what Prometheus was saying. Started to think it made sense (a little). Then back to true form he shows his a$$. I suggest you educate yourself (Prometheus) on what alcohol abuse is, your assumptions only make you appear dumber.

I think Bill got it right (lol) when he suggests that it is your own decision to make. Some will, some don't, some can't.

You are responsible for your own safety.

 

[Prometheus]

I suggest you educate yourself (Prometheus) on what alcohol abuse is, your assumptions only make you appear dumber.

Some people wrongly believe denial is the indicator. Projection (as what I as refering to) is what I went on. Denial can suspicions. Big difference. Having alcohol in the house or not means nothing. An alcoholic may not have had a drink in 20 years. They are still an alcoholic, just one that no longer drinks.

Quote: "I, and most people, CAN do almost ANYTHING while drinking." is clearly projecting.

It is akin to the hot tempered liberal who doesn't own a gun because "I'd shoot everybody", because she doesn't (or can't) trust herself, she trusts no one.

 

[Prometheus]

Rephrase: You quoted Mrs. Hoppes. I saw that, where you then chastised her for saying she didn't think it was the most intelligent move to be armed in a place such as she described. Not that anyone should or should not be armed, just that to be so in that situation, she thought was less than intelligent. Conversely, you came out and said that there were some people (not criminals) you thought should not be armed, even when sober. I don't see why she deserved to be chastised in your eyes when your own statement was IMHO, far more intrusive and overbearing. It is that discrepancy I did not see you address. Would you please clarify?

Thanks and Blessings,
B

"IMHO" was the operative phrase in your post.

I believe that mrs hoppes suggestion that she thinks people should be disarmed and easy victims simply because they have chosen a legal place to be is worse than my suggestion that people without any self control should not carry a firearm.

I cannot see how you would disagree with that.