The video of Sam Dubose's death is so bad, Cincinnati is prepping for riots.

[wsenefeld]

I still don't rule out the possibility that when the car took off, it jarred the cop enough that he accidentally discharged his weapon.

After seeing the video countless times on Cincinnati's channel 5, I'd bed to differ. They played the video in slow-mo up until the point of the shot so you could see the car wasn't moving, and Sam Dubose's hands were raised at the time he was shot. Only after the shot was fired did you hear tires chirp and then the car drive off. I would guess Sam DuBose had an involuntary muscle movement after being shot in the head that caused his car to flee and possibly knock the officer down.

 

[foszoe]

Isn't it sort of a rule of thumb that eyewitness testimony is always suspect, not for any nefarious reasons, but simply because that's the way the human brain works - especially in stressful situations? Time and space are expanded, or contracted. What we see is exaggerated, or subject to tunnel vision. Point of view, distance, adrenaline, and psychological factors all filter what we remember seeing.

Just consider the Michael Brown case (ignoring the "witnesses" who were obviously lying): there was much testimony that was contradictory, not because of intentional lying, but because of all the factors above. The prosecutors, and the grand jurors, had to weigh all eyewitness testimony against the actual, physical evidence, and then draw conclusions.

I think it's the same here. The officer felt like he was being dragged, and that was probably a reasonable feeling. The other officer saw the car go from point A to point B, with the officer "attached". There's no lying going on here, as far as I can tell - and certainly, not time to concoct a story to be captured on each other's body cams. Rather, it's merely contemporaneous utterances based on their actual, imperfect perception at that moment.

Yep. Eyewitness testimony is very often unreliable. A case could be made that the most precise memories of an individual, nicknamed flash bulb memories, are more unreliable than ordinary memory because under stress, an individual is more certain th a t their memory is 100%.

Research has shown, for example, that when a traumatic experience occurs (think Kennedy assassination or Challenger disaster), people will insist their memory is absolutely correct even in the face of contradictory physical evidence.

Or am I having a flash bulb memory of a psychology class somewhere in the distant past.

That's why the officer could be 100% certain he was being dragged along, but be wrong.

Allowing speculation, I see at least 3 possibilities.

1. Intentional murder (least likely)
2. Negligent discharge, hand gripped gun as reflex to cars motion.
3. Intentional firing of weapon as self defense.

With with 2 broken down into a) negligent discharge with memory making officers perception that possibility 3 is what actually happened or b) negligent discharge with conscious decision to claim possibility 3.

Of the 3 my opinion is its most likely number 2 either a or b and since I believe in inherent goodness, my preconception is 2a. That's just a gut feeling. I waver between 2a and 3 though.

I do think it was a mistake to reach in the car. It was also a mistake to put the car in gear.

In the end let all the details come out in a trial and let the jury decide this one.

 

[chipbennett]

It is NOT what WE can see, but what the officer PERCEIVED at the time of the incident that he will be judged on. Graham v. Connor is what he will be judged by.

Use of force: Defining 'objectively-reasonable' force

1.) Judged through the perspective of a reasonable officer
a. Officer with same or similar training and experience
b. Facing similar circumstances
c. Act the same way or use similar judgment
2.) Based on the totality of the facts known to the officer at the time the force was applied
a. No matter how compelling the evidence is to be found later
b. No hindsight evaluation
3.) Based on the facts known to the officer without regard to the underlying intent or motivation
4.) Based on the knowledge the officer acted properly under established law at the time

Oh, I understand. I based that statement on the Reasonable Man standard, but didn't really specify.

 

[foszoe]

As to all the frame by frame video critiques, if I could live my life that way, I would not have made near as many mistakes, but I don't process at 30 fps. I think it's very hard to make a murder case based on such analysis. It can highlight training opportunities and critical steps, those where, once taken, have irrevocable consequences.

 

[Denny347]

After seeing the video countless times on Cincinnati's channel 5, I'd bed to differ. They played the video in slow-mo up until the point of the shot so you could see the car wasn't moving, and Sam Dubose's hands were raised at the time he was shot. Only after the shot was fired did you hear tires chirp and then the car drive off. I would guess Sam DuBose had an involuntary muscle movement after being shot in the head that caused his car to flee and possibly knock the officer down.

So how did the car get from Park to Drive?

 

[The Bubba Effect]

So how did the car get from Park to Drive?

The Confederate Flag.

 

[Peter Potamus]

On another forum, someone asked if the memory of 2001 is driving the prosecutor, the media, the UC PD, the public, and anyone else connected to this newest episode, to hang Tensing before the trial even starts? Cincinnati was a thriving, prosperous city at the time of the 2001 event. Since then, their economy has really struggled and is just now starting to rebound. Major changes, mostly knee-jerk and made to placate the liberals and the media, have destroyed what was once a great place to live. Cincinnati is nothing like what it was 15 years ago and that's a loss for everyone.

Is the memory of 2001 going to assure that Tensing is guilty before his trial even starts? It seems there is sufficient reason for this trial to be moved somewhere in Ohio far from Cincinnati.

 

[Dead Duck]

I saw nothing that I would inherently justify the use of deadly force against DuBose.

Are you kidding?

I would have shot him on his outfit choice alone. I've seen clowns less colorful.




Oh and here's some screen shots-
Sam DuBose | Officer Ray Tensing | Traffic stop killing

 

[Ericpwp]

Oh and here's some screen shots-
Sam DuBose | Officer Ray Tensing | Traffic stop killing

In his screenshot of the determined shot, the truck is NOT in the same position as the writer claims, nor is the patrol car.

 

[Dead Duck]

In his screenshot of the determined shot, the truck is NOT in the same position as the writer claims, nor is the patrol car.

Yep.
He was definitely dragged. When he finally got up, he was next to that parked car that was way ahead of the [STRIKE]clown's[/STRIKE] [STRIKE]suspect's[/STRIKE] poor innocent victim's car.

Also looks like he didn't have his finger on the trigger when he drew the gun....yet.

 

[wsenefeld]

So how did the car get from Park to Drive?

Watch the video. As Tensing tried to open the door the first time, Dubose started the vehicle and put it in drive (before the scuffle and flailing started).

 

[chipbennett]

Are you kidding?

I would have shot him on his outfit choice alone. I've seen clowns less colorful.

Indeed, there's no accounting for taste, especially where fashion sense is concerned.

 

[Peter Potamus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=992FY-hcUkM

This is the first time I've seen all of Tensing's video. It runs 27 minutes and appears to be completely unedited. A lot of new info here.

 

[Denny347]

Watch the video. As Tensing tried to open the door the first time, Dubose started the vehicle and put it in drive (before the scuffle and flailing started).

I know. My point, he was fleeing. See, the bad thing about video is that we get to freeze frame and dissect it. In reality, this happened simultaneously, at least that is how we perceive it. That is all the time we get to recognize the threat, decide on a course of action, then act on that decision. I see a motion for change of venue...FAR AWAY...in the future. I do not see him doing time out of this.

 

[Alpo]

Wow. Looking at the video only once, it happened so fast that I wouldn't be able to timeline any sequence as an eyewitness. I'm not sure that the officer would have a good timeline in his mind either.

I still don't see a reason for shooting the guy. Way too quick to draw and fire on a stop like this. He should have gone back to the patrol car and checked things further before attempting to open the car door.

 

[BADWOLF]

 

[jamil]

After seeing the video countless times on Cincinnati's channel 5, I'd bed to differ. They played the video in slow-mo up until the point of the shot so you could see the car wasn't moving, and Sam Dubose's hands were raised at the time he was shot. Only after the shot was fired did you hear tires chirp and then the car drive off. I would guess Sam DuBose had an involuntary muscle movement after being shot in the head that caused his car to flee and possibly knock the officer down.

I've watched the video over and over and over, real time, frame by frame, with no commentary playing in the background. It's very difficult, even frame by frame, to definitively say what I'm seeing. But I can see where if you're being told while watching the video that he had his hands raised at the time he was shot, I can see where you might believe it. And if you're being told while watching the video, that the truck is in the same place in the frame, you might believe the car didn't move.

I'm not saying neither were true. I'm saying the video isn't of sufficient view and quality to say those are facts. The second shot of the truck in the driveway, seems to be in the same spot *in the frame*, but the shot is taken from a different angle than the first. When the camera is looking straight on, the truck is kinda straight on towards the upper left of the frame, partially covered by the A pillar. When you see the truck in the frame at the time of the shot being fired, the camera is no longer facing straight on, but angled more towards the back of the car. If the car was still in the same spot, you'd think that when the camera pivots towards the rear, that the truck would be more towards the left of the frame.

And the frames leading up to where the shot is fired, it looked like the officer's left hand was on or near DuBose's chest area where the seat belt was draped across, and DuBose's left arm is moving to that. Are his hands up like he's surrendering? Doesn't look like it to me. It looks more like his right arm is still down.

The video does not present a full and clear enough picture of the timing of events to say either way. It's going to be a judgement call by the jury. But after looking at the video several more times, I would almost rule out that he accidentally pulled the trigger.

 

[Ericpwp]

Oh and here's some screen shots-
Sam DuBose | Officer Ray Tensing | Traffic stop killing

In the gunshot screenshot, the drivers side doorlock, the back of the passenger side window/door frame, and the truck all line up. If you draw a line from the first two points when the interaction is taking place, the truck is ahead of that line. The car moved, not much, but it did move. Unless the car moved faster then a bullet, the car moved first.

 

[jamil]

In the gunshot screenshot, the drivers side doorlock, the back of the passenger side window/door frame, and the truck all line up. If you draw a line from the first two points when the interaction is taking place, the truck is ahead of that line. The car moved, not much, but it did move. Unless the car moved faster then a bullet, the car moved first.

That's the way I see it as well. Was the officer "drug" by the car? I don't think the video proves that one way or another. I conclude, from my perspective, with the advantage of being able to spend the time to go frame by frame, I don't think the shooting was justified. It looks to me like the officer could have removed himself at any time and stepped back.

On the other hand, it's still not anything like what the media and the prosecutor portray either. I think there's a whole lot of political scapegoating going on. And Officer Tensing is being offered up as a sacrifice to the community.

 

[j706]

Are you kidding?

I would have shot him on his outfit choice alone. I've seen clowns less colorful.




Oh and here's some screen shots-
Sam DuBose | Officer Ray Tensing | Traffic stop killing

No kidding! At first I though it was some sort of traffic cone propped up in the driver seat!