.38 Snubby ammo choice

[whiteoak]

I put in a supply of these several years ago, and can make my own with several cast bullets. I kind of like the extra penetration of a semi soft lead HP in 158gr weight. I'm shooting them in a 2" Detective Special. If I remember correctly the loads clock in a just short of 800fps in the Colt. In many guns the lead bullets seem too travel just a bit faster then the jacket counterparts of the same weight, with a touch less pressure.

 

[BE Mike]

Curious why you are going with this ammo, Im unsure of that projectile. For now Im settling in on Buffalo Bore 20E version.

I've seen enough tests to convince me that it is better than any handgun ammo on the market. A buddy, who has extensive experience with ammo testing and firearms training for a major federal agency, recommended it to me. Underwood ammo performs just a little better than the Lehigh, although they use the same bullet.

 

[Voldemort]

Interesting, Im open to it, just havent seen enough yet to convince me. Do you have anything you can forward me?

 

[BE Mike]

Interesting, Im open to it, just havent seen enough yet to convince me. Do you have anything you can forward me?

Here's one test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClJcJ8LQFbQ

 

[Voldemort]

Still not convinced. That was basically an infomercial for the ammo. I'll stay with HST in 9mm, I need to see a test in .38. Not all projectiles perform the same in different calibers. Did like the flame thrower......

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I've seen enough tests to convince me that it is better than any handgun ammo on the market. A buddy, who has extensive experience with ammo testing and firearms training for a major federal agency, recommended it to me. Underwood ammo performs just a little better than the Lehigh, although they use the same bullet.

What federal agency, and did they adopt it?

 

[BE Mike]

Still not convinced. That was basically an infomercial for the ammo. I'll stay with HST in 9mm, I need to see a test in .38. Not all projectiles perform the same in different calibers. Did like the flame thrower......

There are other videos with other calibers if you are interested.

 

[BE Mike]

What federal agency, and did they adopt it?

He is retired and whether or not an agency decides to buy ammo has much more to do with politics, cost and other factors than it's effectiveness. I'm sure Underwood isn't in the price range for major sales to police departments, nor are they equipped to produce on a million round scale. Luckily we average folks who carry can choose what best performs in our guns and what we deem most effective.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

He is retired and whether or not an agency decides to buy ammo has much more to do with politics, cost and other factors than it's effectiveness. I'm sure Underwood isn't in the price range for major sales to police departments, nor are they equipped to produce on a million round scale. Luckily we average folks who carry can choose what best performs in our guns and what we deem most effective.

What agency did he retire from, and in what capacity was he testing ammunition? I ask because if that's truly what he said, it directly contradicts statement from Dr. Gary Roberts, who tests ammunition for folks like the FBI, the US Military, etc. INS by any chance?

Underwood loads other people's bullets. Lehigh in this instance, but also use Speer bullets. If the bullet were truly better than anything else out there, particularly "twice the permanent cavity", you'd think a major manufacturer could crank them out. This is not a new idea, (Google Devel bullet) or a unique one. Ruger/Polycase is doing the same thing with the ARX, but it at least a bit more honest in terms admitting that the "impressive" wound channel is temporary stretch cavity. The phillips head/propeller style bullets have been tested, direct quote from Dr. Robers here, "nothing magical". The idea of some sort of hydraulic vortex using meat to cut other meat is simply not true.

Yes, you can carry what you deem most effective. I'd rather see folks base that on realistic testing, proven field results, and not on marketing hype and Youtube amateur tests to make those decisions, though. The Lehigh bullets aren't useless by any stretch. They have a place, something like a semi-auto used for bear defense comes to mind, where they can be driven hard and 26"+ of penetration is quite reasonable. For anti-people use and in the context of short barrels, they are somewhere between ball and wadcutters, but at a greater cost.

 

[in625shooter]

He is retired and whether or not an agency decides to buy ammo has much more to do with politics, cost and other factors than it's effectiveness. I'm sure Underwood isn't in the price range for major sales to police departments, nor are they equipped to produce on a million round scale. Luckily we average folks who carry can choose what best performs in our guns and what we deem most effective.

I'm not retired and everytime I go to any firearms instructor revert at FLETC it's Winchester, Speer, Federal, Remington of some flavor. In fact one could pull up a GAO report and shows the cost per round, type, company etc. Unless recently changed there is zero Underwood used by any Federal Agencies. Some agencies are about cost, others might have a little more involvement in performance.

Why some still use the antiquated Federal 9BP JHP in 9mm but others the HST variety.

 

[BE Mike]

I'm not retired and everytime I go to any firearms instructor revert at FLETC it's Winchester, Speer, Federal, Remington of some flavor. In fact one could pull up a GAO report and shows the cost per round, type, company etc. Unless recently changed there is zero Underwood used by any Federal Agencies. Some agencies are about cost, others might have a little more involvement in performance.

Why some still use the antiquated Federal 9BP JHP in 9mm but others the HST variety.

Yep, Underwood is a very small company. The bullets made by Lehigh that they use are CNC machined. No doubt that FLETC would stick with the major manufacturers.

 

[BE Mike]

What agency did he retire from, and in what capacity was he testing ammunition? I ask because if that's truly what he said, it directly contradicts statement from Dr. Gary Roberts, who tests ammunition for folks like the FBI, the US Military, etc. INS by any chance?

Underwood loads other people's bullets. Lehigh in this instance, but also use Speer bullets. If the bullet were truly better than anything else out there, particularly "twice the permanent cavity", you'd think a major manufacturer could crank them out. This is not a new idea, (Google Devel bullet) or a unique one. Ruger/Polycase is doing the same thing with the ARX, but it at least a bit more honest in terms admitting that the "impressive" wound channel is temporary stretch cavity. The phillips head/propeller style bullets have been tested, direct quote from Dr. Robers here, "nothing magical". The idea of some sort of hydraulic vortex using meat to cut other meat is simply not true.

Yes, you can carry what you deem most effective. I'd rather see folks base that on realistic testing, proven field results, and not on marketing hype and Youtube amateur tests to make those decisions, though. The Lehigh bullets aren't useless by any stretch. They have a place, something like a semi-auto used for bear defense comes to mind, where they can be driven hard and 26"+ of penetration is quite reasonable. For anti-people use and in the context of short barrels, they are somewhere between ball and wadcutters, but at a greater cost.

The Devel bullet was sintered and didn't hold up well. The Lehigh, and yes I did mention that Underwood uses Lehigh bullets are solid metal and machined. I know that a few people, apparently you included, worship at the altar of Gary Roberts and that is fine. The Lehigh bullets aren't known to over-penetrate, as you suggest. That being said, penetration is a valid factor in considering defensive handgun ammo. I always thought that soft points were good bullets and never understood why such rounds as the Super Vel 137 gr. JSP never took off. They work well on white tail deer out of a 4" revolver. My buddy was chief firearms instructor for the USBP at FLETC for many years and later, for many years, worked at the National Firearms and Tactical Training Unit. His study of actual shooting incidents was a part of his duties.

 

[ru44mag]

My buddy was over with his kids last week. His 13 year old daughter is very small for her age. I taught her how to shoot when she was 10. She is a natural. She was shooting one of my snubbies. A Taurus model 85 shooting 158 grain SWC with 4.5 grains of Unique. She handled it quite well, and could not make up her mind if it was her favorite, or the AR-15 was. Anyways, a little bitty 13 yo girl thought the recoil was fine. So I'm curious. What do the experts say about 158 grain SWC for self defense?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

The Devel bullet was sintered and didn't hold up well. The Lehigh, and yes I did mention that Underwood uses Lehigh bullets are solid metal and machined. I know that a few people, apparently you included, worship at the altar of Gary Roberts and that is fine. The Lehigh bullets aren't known to over-penetrate, as you suggest. That being said, penetration is a valid factor in considering defensive handgun ammo. I always thought that soft points were good bullets and never understood why such rounds as the Super Vel 137 gr. JSP never took off. They work well on white tail deer out of a 4" revolver. My buddy was chief firearms instructor for the USBP at FLETC for many years and later, for many years, worked at the National Firearms and Tactical Training Unit. His study of actual shooting incidents was a part of his duties.

Figured it was INS, I recall some of those folks liked the idea. I don't worship anyone, that's kind of an odd thing to say, but ok. Some of the things he's said on another forum I've questioned him on and not gotten answers to my satisfaction (particularly discarding pistol rounds that have been chambered and unchambered once). I am not blindly following someone else. However when it come to bullet construction and selection his observations have matched my own very well...and I get to see a lot of people shot.

My point about the argument that the feds don't select the bullet because Underwood couldn't keep up is why I pointed out they just load other people's bullets. If the idea truly had the merit of "double the wound channel" of bonded hollowpoints, then a major manufacturer would be all over it. They aren't, because they don't. It's marketing, there is no "hydraulic energy focus" or whatever they are terming it. If you want them for penetration, again, I'm not telling you or anyone not to carry them. I'm simply correcting the marketing fluff and offering that there are plenty of PROVEN loads on the market that don't require you to beta test with your own backside on the line.

I mention penetration, because that's what that design is good for. Deep penetration when driven hard from guns in applications that hollowpoints aren't well suited for but won't feed wadcutters well. 10mm Glocks, for example, if you wanted to carry it in bear country. Of *course* penetration is important in self defense loads, but once you've got enough...you've got enough. I had a case where a guy was shot through the chest with a hard cast .357 magnum, which continued through a security door's metal screening, through a wooden exterior door, through an interior wall's dry wall on both sides, and got stuck in a door header. The guy ran down the block and called 911 and was walking around when we got there. All that extra penetration did nothing, and that's not unusual in cases I've worked.

So I'm curious. What do the experts say about 158 grain SWC for self defense?

They've certainly planted a lot of bad guys as the FBI load, and at a pretty reasonable recoil level. When you start getting in to the 3-4" guns, though, I think that a quality bonded hollowpoint is the better option today, as they will be at a velocity they will reliably expand at, deal with barriers better, etc. For a 2" gun, though? Seems a reasonable choice for low recoil and for self defense. A bit more kick than a wadcutter, but probably a wash for most purposes.

 

[ru44mag]

They've certainly planted a lot of bad guys as the FBI load, and at a pretty reasonable recoil level. When you start getting in to the 3-4" guns, though, I think that a quality bonded hollowpoint is the better option today, as they will be at a velocity they will reliably expand at, deal with barriers better, etc. For a 2" gun, though? Seems a reasonable choice for low recoil and for self defense. A bit more kick than a wadcutter, but probably a wash for most purposes.[/QUOTE]

If I carry a revolver, which I have been lately, it's loaded with +P JHP. Thanks for the reply. Just always thought 158 grain SWC would do the job in a pinch...just wanted an experts opinion. Pretty sure I got it.

 

[in625shooter]

So I'm curious. What do the experts say about 158 grain SWC for self defense?

Not to be confused with the FBI load which is a SWCHP the 158 SWC was issued for some time to NYPD and they had good results however the SWCHP FBI load was better. Most real results prove that. However the last 25 years the push is towards 125-130 grain (usually bonded) JHP for 38. The same way the 9mm has been better has crossed to the 38. That's why you are well pressed to find any FBI loads around these days but 125-130 gr bonded are everywhere.

Any quality 125-130 JHP your probably good to go (or 135 gold dot) even the Hornady 110 critical duty doesn't look bad but I prefer a 125 or heavier. Just me.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Not to be confused with the FBI load which is a SWCHP .

My mistake, in625 is correct. I screwed up my acronyms, SWCHP is the FBI load. The "HP" indicating hollowpoint. They are an expandable bullet, although not with the sharp edges and more uniform expansion of most of today's options. I'm getting out of my wheelhouse a bit here, but my understanding is the shoulders still cut similarly to a wadcutter if the bullet fails to expand. So, the above was addressed to the SWCHP, not what you actually asked. The vanilla SWC would behave the same, just without the possibility of expansion, so you could drive it slower to get the same penetration if recoil reduction was a concern.

 

[ru44mag]

Not to be confused with the FBI load which is a SWCHP the 158 SWC was issued for some time to NYPD and they had good results however the SWCHP FBI load was better. Most real results prove that. However the last 25 years the push is towards 125-130 grain (usually bonded) JHP for 38. The same way the 9mm has been better has crossed to the 38. That's why you are well pressed to find any FBI loads around these days but 125-130 gr bonded are everywhere.

Any quality 125-130 JHP your probably good to go (or 135 gold dot) even the Hornady 110 critical duty doesn't look bad but I prefer a 125 or heavier. Just me.

I have been carrying 125 grain Winchester or Remington JHP 38 Special +P for some time. I don't know if they are bonded or not. It does not say on the box. I am reloading 158 grain SWC. If somehow I run out and can't find any JHP, the SWC will have to do.

 

[BE Mike]

Figured it was INS, I recall some of those folks liked the idea. I don't worship anyone, that's kind of an odd thing to say, but ok. Some of the things he's said on another forum I've questioned him on and not gotten answers to my satisfaction (particularly discarding pistol rounds that have been chambered and unchambered once). I am not blindly following someone else. However when it come to bullet construction and selection his observations have matched my own very well...and I get to see a lot of people shot.

My point about the argument that the feds don't select the bullet because Underwood couldn't keep up is why I pointed out they just load other people's bullets. If the idea truly had the merit of "double the wound channel" of bonded hollowpoints, then a major manufacturer would be all over it. They aren't, because they don't. It's marketing, there is no "hydraulic energy focus" or whatever they are terming it. If you want them for penetration, again, I'm not telling you or anyone not to carry them. I'm simply correcting the marketing fluff and offering that there are plenty of PROVEN loads on the market that don't require you to beta test with your own backside on the line.

I mention penetration, because that's what that design is good for. Deep penetration when driven hard from guns in applications that hollowpoints aren't well suited for but won't feed wadcutters well. 10mm Glocks, for example, if you wanted to carry it in bear country. Of *course* penetration is important in self defense loads, but once you've got enough...you've got enough. I had a case where a guy was shot through the chest with a hard cast .357 magnum, which continued through a security door's metal screening, through a wooden exterior door, through an interior wall's dry wall on both sides, and got stuck in a door header. The guy ran down the block and called 911 and was walking around when we got there. All that extra penetration did nothing, and that's not unusual in cases I've worked.



They've certainly planted a lot of bad guys as the FBI load, and at a pretty reasonable recoil level. When you start getting in to the 3-4" guns, though, I think that a quality bonded hollowpoint is the better option today, as they will be at a velocity they will reliably expand at, deal with barriers better, etc. For a 2" gun, though? Seems a reasonable choice for low recoil and for self defense. A bit more kick than a wadcutter, but probably a wash for most purposes.

Most .380 ammo doesn't deliver adequate penetration, and this is where I think the Underwood ammo shines the brightest. The tests I've seen show 11" penetration, which is just about what a person wants. As for stopping power, I have a buddy who shot a suspect with a .45 ACP Hydrashock in the thigh. It didn't put the suspect down. As a side note, my buddy did pretty well, considering the suspect shot first at close range with a shotgun and blew my buddy's raid jacket collar off. Subsequent center mass shots by my buddy and his partner took the suspect out of action. My buddy who likes the Underwood ammo has also explored many shooting incidents and interviewed quite a few agents who were involved in shooting incidents. The lessons learned went toward improving training. IMHO his opinions deserve some respect.

 

[451_Detonics]

Still carry the 125gr NyClad in my snubby 38s, have a goodly supply on hand still. When I run out I will carry DPX, been in on a lot of testing of that stuff and I am impressed with it.