.38 Snubby ammo choice

[BehindBlueI's]

Most .380 ammo doesn't deliver adequate penetration, and this is where I think the Underwood ammo shines the brightest. The tests I've seen show 11" penetration, which is just about what a person wants. As for stopping power, I have a buddy who shot a suspect with a .45 ACP Hydrashock in the thigh. It didn't put the suspect down. As a side note, my buddy did pretty well, considering the suspect shot first at close range with a shotgun and blew my buddy's raid jacket collar off. Subsequent center mass shots by my buddy and his partner took the suspect out of action. My buddy who likes the Underwood ammo has also explored many shooting incidents and interviewed quite a few agents who were involved in shooting incidents. The lessons learned went toward improving training. IMHO his opinions deserve some respect.

.380 is borderline. I've seen ball ammo go through a really fat guy and disappear in dry wall afterward, but it was all soft tissue (mostly fat) and no bone strike. Bone stops it dead, although generally with a nice fracture. The .380 isn't going to feed wadcutters, so you're out that option. I generally don't recommend anything one way or the other in .380 because I've yet to make up my mind on the better options.

I wouldn't expect a shot in the thigh to put someone down unless it hit the femur and fractured it, in which case mechanically they are likely to fall down. Ammunition doesn't overcome shot placement and "stopping power" is right up there with "energy transfer" as something that isn't a thing when talking about handgun bullets wounding people. I'm not sure how that's relevant, unless you're claiming the Lehigh design somehow would have worked better?

I've interviewed literally hundreds of people shot, been at the scene, saw where bullet cases were, talked to the ER doctors and saw the x-rays, etc. Add in assisting on murders and officer involved shootings, interviews with those who shot someone, and having access to roughly 30 years of case files on the same, access to autopsy results, etc. Even that, IMO, is insufficient to declare any particular brand "the best". I can tell you what works as advertised and what doesn't, but there's so many variables that true apples to apples comparisons are tough to come by. As such, I'll continue to recommend heavy for caliber bonded hollowpoints in duty calibers (and recommend duty calibers, while we're at it), recommend against the .25 (which isn't even a reliable suicide gun), as well as the advice I've already given on the .38 in a short barrel and the agnostic information on the .380. If you think that opinion is worth respect or not is up to you.

 

[BE Mike]

.380 is borderline. I've seen ball ammo go through a really fat guy and disappear in dry wall afterward, but it was all soft tissue (mostly fat) and no bone strike. Bone stops it dead, although generally with a nice fracture. The .380 isn't going to feed wadcutters, so you're out that option. I generally don't recommend anything one way or the other in .380 because I've yet to make up my mind on the better options.

I wouldn't expect a shot in the thigh to put someone down unless it hit the femur and fractured it, in which case mechanically they are likely to fall down. Ammunition doesn't overcome shot placement and "stopping power" is right up there with "energy transfer" as something that isn't a thing when talking about handgun bullets wounding people. I'm not sure how that's relevant, unless you're claiming the Lehigh design somehow would have worked better?

I've interviewed literally hundreds of people shot, been at the scene, saw where bullet cases were, talked to the ER doctors and saw the x-rays, etc. Add in assisting on murders and officer involved shootings, interviews with those who shot someone, and having access to roughly 30 years of case files on the same, access to autopsy results, etc. Even that, IMO, is insufficient to declare any particular brand "the best". I can tell you what works as advertised and what doesn't, but there's so many variables that true apples to apples comparisons are tough to come by. As such, I'll continue to recommend heavy for caliber bonded hollowpoints in duty calibers (and recommend duty calibers, while we're at it), recommend against the .25 (which isn't even a reliable suicide gun), as well as the advice I've already given on the .38 in a short barrel and the agnostic information on the .380. If you think that opinion is worth respect or not is up to you.

Great resume. What agency do you work for and in what capacity? Actually, I agree, pistol ammo, isn't the best man stopper, but it's usually what most of us have when we need it. As for the .25 ACP, I certainly agree, it has a pretty high rate of lethality, but not stopping power. People may end up dying from blood poisoning days or weeks later. As for my buddy who shot back after being shot at at close range with a shotgun, I meant to add, IIRC, it took several shots to put him down. The calibers were 9mm and .45 ACP, all hollow points. I don't know if they were bonded JHP's.

 

[ru44mag]

.380 is borderline. I've seen ball ammo go through a really fat guy and disappear in dry wall afterward, but it was all soft tissue (mostly fat) and no bone strike. Bone stops it dead, although generally with a nice fracture. The .380 isn't going to feed wadcutters, so you're out that option. I generally don't recommend anything one way or the other in .380 because I've yet to make up my mind on the better options.

I wouldn't expect a shot in the thigh to put someone down unless it hit the femur and fractured it, in which case mechanically they are likely to fall down. Ammunition doesn't overcome shot placement and "stopping power" is right up there with "energy transfer" as something that isn't a thing when talking about handgun bullets wounding people. I'm not sure how that's relevant, unless you're claiming the Lehigh design somehow would have worked better?

I've interviewed literally hundreds of people shot, been at the scene, saw where bullet cases were, talked to the ER doctors and saw the x-rays, etc. Add in assisting on murders and officer involved shootings, interviews with those who shot someone, and having access to roughly 30 years of case files on the same, access to autopsy results, etc. Even that, IMO, is insufficient to declare any particular brand "the best". I can tell you what works as advertised and what doesn't, but there's so many variables that true apples to apples comparisons are tough to come by. As such, I'll continue to recommend heavy for caliber bonded hollowpoints in duty calibers (and recommend duty calibers, while we're at it), recommend against the .25 (which isn't even a reliabl e suicide gun), as well as the advice I've already given on the .38 in a short barrel and the agnostic information on the .380. If you think that opinion is worth respect or not is up to you.

I have done a lot of internet research. I have nowhere near your experience. I have shot a lot of things, especially deer with a lot of different bullets. But as far as the .380 goes, for the most part it never gets carried. But I have not given up on it entirely, and I can't find anything else my wife will use. So I have tried to find the best round for self defense for the .380. I have posted this before, and sometimes I get flamed and sometimes ignored. But it goes 50/50. Some say full metal jacket others bonded hollow point. And even BBI won't say which is best. I can't make up my mind either. So I stack the mag with FMJ alternating with JHP. When target shooting this mix, you can't tell the difference. It's kind of like the stock market. You need to diversify.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I have done a lot of internet research. I have nowhere near your experience. I have shot a lot of things, especially deer with a lot of different bullets. But as far as the .380 goes, for the most part it never gets carried. But I have not given up on it entirely, and I can't find anything else my wife will use. So I have tried to find the best round for self defense for the .380. I have posted this before, and sometimes I get flamed and sometimes ignored. But it goes 50/50. Some say full metal jacket others bonded hollow point. And even BBI won't say which is best. I can't make up my mind either. So I stack the mag with FMJ alternating with JHP. When target shooting this mix, you can't tell the difference. It's kind of like the stock market. You need to diversify.

I think we've discussed it before, but I just so rarely see quality HP used in a .380 that I don't have a good sample size. Ball ammo seem to perform radically differently depending on distance and what in the body is struck (muscle, fat, bone, etc.) There may be the ideal load out there, I've just not seen it used. I hesitate to make any recommendation just because I can't see any real patterns emerge like you can with, say, 9mm.

 

[Voldemort]

Fascinating conversation! This is what I settled on for now, but I was expecting the Gold Dot projectile not this. If you read the fine print, B Bore states projectile may vary.....

 

[VERT]

Fascinating conversation! This is what I settled on for now, but I was expecting the Gold Dot projectile not this. If you read the fine print, B Bore states projectile may vary.....

View attachment 49284

The Buffalo Bore stuff I have shot in the past was good. Pricey but good. I got a hold of some of the 180 grain hard cast .357 and wow! Talk about power.

The 158 soft LSWCHP is essentially the old "FBI Load".