Capitalism is so broken it can’t be fixed

[ViperJock]

It wouldn't happen because even at that price there is no profit to be had, If a private citizen did what you proposed they would have to pay retail + transportation + distribution.

If a corporation did this they may be able to turn a hefty profit and it could be considered gouging. But you're still stuck in the situation that these people do not have access to money, that coupled with government regulations and public outcry at the companies taking advantage of the situation would be a PR nightmare. Which in the long run would hurt their profits.

You never answered the hypothetical question. The point of the question was not "can someone do this for $7 " it was "is it ok for someone to do this."

Furthermore, public outcry is hardly a good indicator of morality or of measuring an effective economic system. the "public" as a rule is stupid and even greedier than the greedy corporations.

Gasoline is not a basic need. In all but the most desperate situations, basic needs can be filled with effort and obtaining them is not insurmountable for an able bodied person/family. Anything else is a luxury. Just ask the third world. Americans as a rule are so spoiled they think they think TV, cigarettes, child care, schooling, etc etc etc are rights and needs. They expect to be able to buy everything they "need" with minimal effort.

Capitalism is the principle that if you want something, you have to earn it. While I agree that the govt needs to prevent or punish issues of fraud, theft, and slavery, pretty much everything else should be left to the market.

Regulation causes more disparity than it helps, often at the expense of the producers or overall economy. Corruption runs rampant in the govt and many regulations are made to help buddies and hurt the others. In the case of our current administration; hurt the producers to gain support of the looters. As with the "law" in general, regulations are selectively applied. how is that "fair?"

 

[ruger17hmr]

For those of you who are heading up this anti gouging crusade, I suggest you put your money where your fingertips are. Most of us can all agree that there will be an economic crisis in the near future and there will be a food shortage. Invest thousands of your dollars into starting a food pantry. Then when the grocery store shelves are empty, sell your goods only for what you paid for them. Even to those who made fun of you. And if you hold anything back for yourself, you're a greedy hoarder. If you don't sell your last can of beans to the entitled, ungrateful **** at your doorstep, shame on you.

LOL

 

[TiminMishawaka]

If you want to know why capitalism is broken, just read the gouging threads here.

That's not capitalism. That's legislators screwing with free trade. The $600 ARs that were available only last summer was capitalism when people who knew what was coming bought them. If you're not good at capitalism, that doesn't make it capitalism's fault.

 

[rambone]

You cant directly compare limited quantity items or minerals to something that is being mass produced. The limited nature of silver is exactly what makes it valuable and correlates to it's market value.

This makes no sense. AR mags and Glocks ARE "limited quantity items." They have a "limited nature." Just ask people trying to obtain them.

 

[fallenangel1]

This makes no sense. AR mags and Glocks ARE "limited quantity items." They have a "limited nature." Just ask people trying to obtain them.

That's why they are in stock at some LGS ?? Just becase the stock on hand diminished faster than they expected it to doesn't mean that more isn't on it's way. Limited nature means that there is only a set amount of something and no matter what there will be no more of it beyond that.

I keep hearing the same things over and over and it seems obvious that most of you aren't even reading my posts or are choosing to ignore them, so I give up. You can all keep on hating on the government and its regulations while you sit back and blindly enjoy the protection it affords you.

 

[rambone]

That's why they are in stock at some LGS ?? Just becase the stock on hand diminished faster than they expected it to doesn't mean that more isn't on it's way. Limited nature means that there is only a set amount of something and no matter what there will be no more of it beyond that.

I keep hearing the same things over and over and it seems obvious that most of you aren't even reading my posts or are choosing to ignore them, so I give up. You can all keep on hating on the government and its regulations while you sit back and blindly enjoy the protection it affords you.

I'm reading your posts, but you are not making a compelling argument. Guns and gun parts are not an unlimited commodity. You can keep repeating that they "are too!" but it doesn't make it true.

You can keep on hating the market and its natural ups and downs and sit back and enjoy the benefits it affords you.

 

[lashicoN]

These sellers were/are just taking advantage of the state of the market in essence producing their own oligopolies where they could charge whatever they wanted and people would either have to pay or deal with the idea that they may never be able to purchase said items.

The early bird catches the worm. If another bird wakes up at noon because he was out having fun all night, and finds himself unable to catch a worm, he'll have to go barter with the early bird or learn a valuable lesson about responsibility and preparedness on an empty stomach.

Is the early bird just taking advantage of the market when the ignorant and/or lazy bird comes to him at 2PM, wanting one of his worms? Shouldn't the early bird be rewarded for preparing to get up early and for having the will to go out and catch the worm while the other bird was comfortably sleeping in his nest?

As long as one has a telephone and/or internet connection, we're all equally aware of what time a theatre shows a movie. So, am I just taking advantage of the market when I plan accordingly and get there early enough to get the seat I want, while others stroll in five minutes into the movie and have to stand in the corner throughout the film? Is that fair? We all paid the same price, after all.

We all had the same opportunities to see the writing on the wall. I sacrificed my impulsive wants throughout my early twenties in order to purchase eleven firearms, holsters, ammunition, ammo cans, etc. I haven't had to pay higher prices, because I haven't bought anything firearm related in the last year. If I wanted to sell one of those firearms at a profit, which I don't, I should be rewarded for buying them when others my age were going out to bars every night, wasting their money $600 cell phones and $125 jeans. I was smart, I made sacrifices, and I am prepared. For those who are ignorant and/or lazy, they will pay a higher price for their ignorance, and if they're lucky, they will learn a lesson for next time. The early bird gets the worm.

Without regulation the one who sells can ask for what? a night with your wife? Your daughter? Or anything that you have that is of value.

Sure. And I'm free to say no. If you have something I want, we will come to a mutually beneficial agreement, or the deal will not happen. This has been going on for some time now.

You cant directly compare limited quantity items or minerals to something that is being mass produced. The limited nature of silver is exactly what makes it valuable and correlates to it's market value.

Until I can plant a lower receiver into the ground and up sprouts a fruit tree with ripe lower receivers all over it, lowers are limited in quantity.

It seems like if something is mass produced, that product would be available to the masses, like firearms were for at least as long as I have been buying them. Apart from age restrictions, anyone who wanted a firearm had plenty of time to buy one before the price hikes. If they went this long without one, and now feel as though they want to purchase while prices are high, they can either reward the early bird for his hard work and preparation, or they can do without. No one is forcing anyone to buy a firearm at these prices. No one is forcing me to pay $50 for a box of .22LR. I have a savings of ammo, and I have cut back on my target practice. Be responsible or suffer the consequences.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Capitalism sucks. It just sucks less than anything else we've ever tried and has resulted in the highest standard of living for more people than ever recorded in human history.

 

[rambone]

FallenAngel1, what are you advocating? Government price controls? Boycotts?

Or are we just griping about how much it sucks to wait to buy things at peak demand?

 

[mrjarrell]

Capitalism in the US, and much of the "free world" hasn't existed in ages. We live under mercantilism, not capitalism.

 

[fallenangel1]

I'm reading your posts, but you are not making a compelling argument. Guns and gun parts are not an unlimited commodity. You can keep repeating that they "are too!" but it doesn't make it true.

You can keep on hating the market and its natural ups and downs and sit back and enjoy the benefits it affords you.

Ok, other than discontinued weapons what is not being manufactured right now that is not readily available for public purchase somewhere?

 

[ViperJock]

That's not capitalism. That's legislators screwing with free trade. The $600 ARs that were available only last summer was capitalism.

Show me the legislation that increased the price of guns.

This is exactly what a free market is. The demand went up, the supply went down, the price went up. Classic.

The politicians may have influenced the market but the market is always influenced by outside forces via its influence on consumers.

Take for example the "tickle me elmo" Clearly this was a worthless piece of junk that people were willing to fight over and pay outrageous prices for. Why? outside influences on the martket. Are you going to blame snotty nosed brats for that "gouging?" Then why blame the snotty nosed brats for this one?

The panic buyers are the ones that ramped the prices up. noone else.

 

[Smokepole]

People are gouging .. that is a fact. Those sellers are just riding the bubble created by the "AWB Scare of 2012". They weren't fostering capitilism they were being greedy and taking advantage of a pseudo monoply unintentionally created by an unexpected rise in demand and lack of supply from actual manufactures. Once the supply dried the up the profiteers swooped in to make a quick buck. Thankfully things are already starting to shift back to the way they were and unfortunately for some they will soon realize that the $700-800 they paid for a G19 with 1 mag or the $3,000 for a Bushmaster AR was a mistake made in a state of panic.

Capitalism is supply and demand. That is what you saw that prompted your comment above. The ONLY way that those "gougers" were able to ask the prices that you are decrying is because there are idiots out there that will pay those prices. Whether because they are afraid to wait 60 days for the "gougers" to figure that no one is going to pay their inflated price or because they have the money and they "want what they want, when they want it" and don't care.

It's like when my kids see a sweater that I like and ask why it it $140. And I tell them, because "there are people out there that are STUPID enough to pay that much for a $50 - $60 sweater. And I am NOT that person." It isn't about how much a company is charging, but about how much people are willing to pay or "how much the market will bear." When somebody charges an insane price for something they are gambling that people will pay. If enough people pay that price they will keep it. If not, they will compensate eventually or be stuck with the product. That is Free Market Capitalism at work. The part that you find so appalling and leads you to think that the market should be regulated is the buying public because they are stupid enough to pay the inflated price as asked. People that either can't or won't or don't care to wait for the price to come down.

There hasn't been a true free market in this country since about 1900 or maybe farther back than that. The Gubmint has been meddling on an ever increasing scale for over 100 years until we got to where we are now. And that is why there are SOOOO many lobbying firms for SOOOO many industries/companies and why Gov't. and business are so cozy. You will find that the more the Gubmint meddles, encroaches and regulates the more time, money and influence Big Business will seek to push into the political arena. RESULT - Corruption, scandal and influence peddling. If the Gubmint would stay the hell out the balance would be much more equal.

The only way I see that Gov't MAY contribute is to have basic legislation that defines the BASIC rules that protect the consumer. Like a bank holding company cannot act like a Hedge Fund because it is not a responsible use of the depositor's money (I spent 20 years in banking/consumer finance). This was a part of Glass Stiegel Act of 1933 that limited the relationships of bank and securities firms. The repeal of which by the Clinton admin. was a contributing factor in our current recession/depression. Over-regulation of markets/industries by the Gubmint has lead to more inequities and imbalances in the markets than anything else. If you look at history and the long term effects of Gov't regulation you will find that it had as much or more to do with our current situation (and that of the recession of the '70's) as anything thing else. What you won't find as a contributing factor would be an "unregulated market."

The other place that I think Gov't can help to keep balance in the market is to enact legislation that keeps big business from being able to continue consumer law suits into perpetuity, evening the playing field so that the consumer actually has a true chance to prove his case (before his money runs out). As it is, the consumer is working at a distinct disadvantage. And the other side of the even playing field would be to limit the ability of profit seeking frauds to bring frivolous lawsuits and of juries to hand down RIDICULOUS awards. The adage the "sentence should fit the crime" MUST hold true here as well for a system to truly be fair.

But all of that is for a MUCH larger discussion at a different time and I have spent too much time and space here. I got started, forgot to stop and failed in the brevity lesson. Apologies.

 

[ViperJock]

Ok, other than discontinued weapons what is not being manufactured right now that is not readily available for public purchase somewhere?

Seriously? Full size 9mm M&P mags. where can I buy one?

Your argument is now an exercise in the futile inane. How does this even matter to your argument? I would still like to see you address my last post to you.

 

[ruger17hmr]

That's why they are in stock at some LGS ?? Just becase the stock on hand diminished faster than they expected it to doesn't mean that more isn't on it's way. Limited nature means that there is only a set amount of something and no matter what there will be no more of it beyond that.

I keep hearing the same things over and over and it seems obvious that most of you aren't even reading my posts or are choosing to ignore them, so I give up. You can all keep on hating on the government and its regulations while you sit back and blindly enjoy the protection it affords you.

Do you mean such regulations as QE (Quantitative Easing) I, II, III, IV, etc? How does the policy of massive capital infusion helps nurture an ailing economy back to healthy condition when the lack of capital isn't the problem? The Government regulations induced trade wars, currency manipulation, and massive monetizing will be the cause of financial and economic collapse through out the modern world.

History does repeat itself!

We just might have come too far to turn this ship around. Where is the current deficit stand now? 15 Trillion? I wonder who will blink first? China, Germany, Russia, US????

 

[fallenangel1]

FallenAngel1, what are you advocating? Government price controls? Boycotts?

Or are we just griping about how much it sucks to wait to buy things at peak demand?

Another good question, I'm more arguing against the hypocrisy .. Those who scream that capitalism is the best are the same ones screaming for the government to leave us alone so that we can self regulate. When in-fact it is the government regulations that make capitalism possible. there is no room for extreme liberals that feel government should control everything just like there is no room for extreme conservatives that feel the government has no place in regulating us. Sure we can all believe what we want, that's a right afforded to us by our government and our government is not perfect but its the best one out there. unless some of you would rather move to another country??

As nicely stated by someone else a few pages back, the inflated prices as of late was not due to "capitalism" but was in fact a side effect of legislation creating a scare that we were going to lose the right to own and bear certain types of arms which lead a lot of people to go out and buy everything that they could. Its like our good friend Don, he clims to only sell guns because he loves to sell guns. But the truth is he sells guns to turn a profit. Plain and simple and if it were up to him, he would push all other LGS's out of business and charge even more then he already over-charges. But the government does not allow that. So thankfully we have other GOOD LGS's that offer good products ad fair prices.

 

[Hohn]

It wouldn't happen because even at that price there is no profit to be had, If a private citizen did what you proposed they would have to pay retail + transportation + distribution.

If a corporation did this they may be able to turn a hefty profit and it could be considered gouging. But you're still stuck in the situation that these people do not have access to money, that coupled with government regulations and public outcry at the companies taking advantage of the situation would be a PR nightmare. Which in the long run would hurt their profits.

OK, I can tell you know that you're on the losing end of this argument because you're fighting the hypothetical.

You know that if you say YES that you are hypocritical with respect to the current thread topic.

You know that if you say NO, then there will be no supply delivered to the storm survivors, and expensive gasoline beats zero gasoline any day.


As to your evasive response, you are wrong, because this EXACT thing happened after Katrina. Everyone was complaining about the "gougers' moving in a selling "overpriced" gasoline, generators, etc. The gas stations had none because their infrastructure was wiped out-- underground tanks totally contaminated. Generators were suddenly in huge demand.

The effect of allowing "gougers" is that a short term spike in demand can be mitigated, because that high price is a HUGE incentive to crank up supply to the market. It also takes the edge off the demand by reducing demand.

You think there's no one thinking about going into business making ammo or brass? A shortage like this cannot last in a free market. The only reason a shortage like this exists is largely due to gov't barriers that make it more expensive to open a business making brass or bullets. You can't make bullets without major EPA hassles (lead). Industrial waste from brass forming has to be contained and all that. You hire more than a certain number of people and you have to pay unemployment and healthcare (Obamacare, unless your well-connected with a "waiver").


Thanks to roisigns for saving me the hassle of rebutting your earlier misstatements.

 

[lashicoN]

Sure we can all believe what we want, that's a right afforded to us by our government

Seriously? Government affords us the right to have beleifs? How so?

 

[Smokepole]

The only reason a shortage like this exists is largely due to gov't barriers that make it more expensive to open a business making brass or bullets. You can't make bullets without major EPA hassles (lead). Industrial waste from brass forming has to be contained and all that. You hire more than a certain number of people and you have to pay unemployment and healthcare (Obamacare, unless your well-connected with a "waiver").


Thanks to roisigns for saving me the hassle of rebutting your earlier misstatements.

And when you have the Gov't buying somewhere in the vicinity of 1,000,000,000 rounds of ammo. That has to take a HUGE toll on the supply to the market. Add in fear of what your Gubmint wants to do to your 2A rights and you have the perfect storm for ammo shortage. I sometimes wonder if that isn't part of the Gubmint's purpose. Ammo shortage until they can pass certain ammo regs. to make it too costly to purchase?

 

[BogWalker]

Ok, other than discontinued weapons what is not being manufactured right now that is not readily available for public purchase somewhere?

So there is unlimited availability of firearms forever and always? If no, than that is a limited quantity. At the moment demand is outpacing supply. They can only make so many at a time. That means only so many will be on store shelves at a time. That means there is limited availability. When you limit availability enough prices go up. Supply versus demand is the basic tenant of any sort of free market.

Eventually supply will catch up. There will still only be so many available for sale at one time though so that is limited availability. If supply outpaces demand though the price will go down. Supply versus demand.