Enhanced Interrogation- from a guy who did it, and saved a lot of lives

[jamil]

I believe I said at least three times in this thread that I wasn't necessarily condemning the practice. I don't claim to know the answer to when or if it is appropriate, I see valid points on both sides. My issue is with the word games where it is claimed that causing physical discomfort to a point that Islamic terrorists crack is somehow not torture.

Yes. That is what you said, which is why, among other things I addressed the labels. I think we're probably not going to agree completely. I'm okay with them calling what they're doing, "enhanced interrogation", and though admittedly I don't know a lot about it, I'm okay with them doing at least what I think they're doing, under those circumstances. But it would have to be a completely different, way more dire circumstances for me to agree with pulling fingernails off of people. And that is why I think using different terminology is important.

In the case of both, the purpose is to get the person to divulge information they don't want to divulge. Both are interrogation techniques. Both types are immoral in most circumstances, but justifiable in progressively more dire circumstances.

 

[Woobie]

My understanding is that they definitely get a good taste in SERE.

Not just SERE, but that's the big one. And there are techniques in the school that wouldn't make the approved list for interrogating a terrorist.

 

[jamil]

Well, that's why you weren't being quoted. I must have said something to make both you and Jamil think I was replying to you. I wasn't.

I can accept your position as long as you can acknowledge that by your definition we also torture our own service members.

I just used Fargo as an example of one of the people who responded skeptically of "torture". Could have used kut or jludo as an example. I don't think any of them are inconsistent about war or torture.

 

[Woobie]

I just used Fargo as an example of one of the people who responded skeptically of "torture". Could have used kut or jludo as an example. I don't think any of them are inconsistent about war or torture.

If one thinks water boarding is unacceptable in the protraction of a war on terror, then that person can not support some form of war on terror and be consistent. Because water boarding doesn't make the top 100 of bad things that happen in war.

 

[HoughMade]

Torture that leaves no permanent (or not even, really, temporary) physical injury when we've already signed on to the notion that we can kill people doing what they were caught doing?

Pardon me if I fail to find a problem with that.

 

[Fargo]

Torture that leaves no permanent (or not even, really, temporary) physical injury when we've already signed on to the notion that we can kill people doing what they were caught doing?

Pardon me if I fail to find a problem with that.

OK, since they are now captives do you believe that there has to be some sort of judicial or quasi-judicial oversight?

 

[jedi]

I got girls that can cook

[video=youtube;k2GBQqSKl8w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2GBQqSKl8w[/video]

Hum.. Those girls look like they belong in the 70s or 80s!!

 

[actaeon277]

Hum.. Those girls look like they belong in the 70s or 80s!!

There's a reason for that.
Maybe look at when the song was out.


Going back pretty far to look that post up, aren't you?
Bored?



They haven't ordered the cookies yet, have they? I got busy, then forgot to order.

 

[jedi]

OK, since they are now captives do you believe that there has to be some sort of judicial or quasi-judicial oversight?

No
The only way you beat an enemy is via total defeat.
Espeically an enemy that you are fighting over ideas which is what reglion is. ISIS is figting us over reglion at the core. We will never see eye to eye with them. Their is no reasoning to co-exist.

Most civilied people do not have the stomach or heart to fight this way. You want to defeat the monster you must use a bigger monster and in the end hope you can control that bigger monster or be prepared to kill it as well.

 

[Alpo]

Are there circumstances where torture is appropriate? Certainly, especially when time is a major factor.

The heartburn rests with the idea that the state is performing the task. The interdependencies today would argue that almost any justification could be utilized since "everything" is in America's interests. Couple torture with surreptitious NSA surveillance and we are no better than any other police state.

 

[jedi]

There's a reason for that.
Maybe look at when the song was out.


Going back pretty far to look that post up, aren't you?
Bored?



They haven't ordered the cookies yet, have they? I got busy, then forgot to order.

No,cookies,not ordered yet.
Just got done with xrays

 

[Woobie]

Are there circumstances where torture is appropriate? Certainly, especially when time is a major factor.

The heartburn rests with the idea that the state is performing the task. The interdependencies today would argue that almost any justification could be utilized since "everything" is in America's interests. Couple torture with surreptitious NSA surveillance and we are no better than any other police state.

If we limit the scope to known bad guys picked up in a war zone I think it's pretty cut and dried.

But when we start involving American citizens, then constitutional protections must become priority. And things like the Patriot Act did not treat the rights of citizens carefully enough. You bring up an important point. But for people like KSM, I have no interest in playing fair or nice.

 

[jamil]

If one thinks water boarding is unacceptable in the protraction of a war on terror, then that person can not support some form of war on terror and be consistent. Because water boarding doesn't make the top 100 of bad things that happen in war.

I'm still not convinced that we're all arguing the points we think we're arguing.

If we limit the scope to known bad guys picked up in a war zone I think it's pretty cut and dried.

But when we start involving American citizens, then constitutional protections must become priority. And things like the Patriot Act did not treat the rights of citizens carefully enough. You bring up an important point. But for people like KSM, I have no interest in playing fair or nice.

Did we do that in all cases? We gitmo'd a lot of people. I do think, if what the guy in the video says is true, I'm okay with what he said he did to KSM to get the info he got. And as I've said all along, I'm okay with him differentiating that from pulling fingernails, by calling it "enhanced interrogation".

 

[Woobie]

I'm still not convinced that we're all arguing the points we think we're arguing.



Did we do that in all cases? We gitmo'd a lot of people. I do think, if what the guy in the video says is true, I'm okay with what he said he did to KSM to get the info he got. And as I've said all along, I'm okay with him differentiating that from pulling fingernails, by calling it "enhanced interrogation".

I think you're still assuming my satirical comment was directed at at particular post or poster. I am not arguing a position on semantics. We can call it tickling if you like. I don't care. People, and based on posts in other threads, some current or former INGOers take umbrage with EIT/torture/tickling. I am addressing this folly.

No, there were other instances. It's likely not everything we did was acceptable. I should broaden the scope of the quote in bold to "foreign nationals, regardless of location." If we snatch up a Saudi in Los Angeles trying to blow up a terminal at LAX, let's play stupid games. An American citizen has some protections, though.

 

[Alpo]

If we limit the scope to known bad guys picked up in a war zone I think it's pretty cut and dried.

But when we start involving American citizens, then constitutional protections must become priority. And things like the Patriot Act did not treat the rights of citizens carefully enough. You bring up an important point. But for people like KSM, I have no interest in playing fair or nice.

Agree 100%.

 

[jamil]

I think you're still assuming my satirical comment was directed at at particular post or poster. I am not arguing a position on semantics. We can call it tickling if you like. I don't care. People, and based on posts in other threads, some current or former INGOers take umbrage with EIT/torture/tickling. I am addressing this folly.

No, there were other instances. It's likely not everything we did was acceptable. I should broaden the scope of the quote in bold to "foreign nationals, regardless of location." If we snatch up a Saudi in Los Angeles trying to blow up a terminal at LAX, let's play stupid games. An American citizen has some protections, though.

Well, no. I don't think I'm assuming that. I'm not convinced anyone is arguing that, is the point.

 

[Woobie]

Well, no. I don't think I'm assuming that. I'm not convinced anyone is arguing that, is the point.

We've had one person say it's torture and it's wrong and we should never do it, here in this thread. I have suspicions there are others, but they won't come out to play. MrJ would have, but he went and got himself banned.

Kut said he thinks constitutional protections should be extended to all humanity, which is as far as he would go. By the way, I'm cool with that, as long as I can have free Swedish healthcare, a Swiss service rifle, and a free German college education while still being an American citizen.

 

[jamil]

We've had one person say it's torture and it's wrong and we should never do it, here in this thread. I have suspicions there are others, but they won't come out to play. MrJ would have, but he went and got himself banned.

Kut said he thinks constitutional protections should be extended to all humanity, which is as far as he would go. By the way, I'm cool with that, as long as I can have free Swedish healthcare, a Swiss service rifle, and a free German college education while still being an American citizen.

Probably, he meant BoR. I haven't met too many people willing to let Russians vote in American elections.

 

[Woobie]

Probably, he meant BoR. I haven't met too many people willing to let Russians vote in American elections.

Yeah, I know what he meant. Just trying to point out the absurdity again. Or are we going to start petitioning for warrants before we take over a house for a sniper's hide now? I'd hate for someone to have their house temporarily seized unreasonably in the middle of a war. Heck, it would be terrible if we took over a building in the rear echelon to quarter our troops.

If you think the BoR is cool, apply for citizenship. I don't ask for privileges in your country. And I sure as heck wouldn't if I had just tried to kill a bunch of your innocent people.

 

[jamil]

Yeah, I know what he meant. Just trying to point out the absurdity again. Or are we going to start petitioning for warrants before we take over a house for a sniper's hide now? I'd hate for someone to have their house temporarily seized unreasonably in the middle of a war. Heck, it would be terrible if we took over a building in the rear echelon to quarter our troops.

If you think the BoR is cool, apply for citizenship. I don't ask for privileges in your country. And I sure as heck wouldn't if I had just tried to kill a bunch of your innocent people.

I think a nation has the obligation protect its citizens' rights. It isn't obligated to protect other nations' citizens, but I don't mind if we extend the curtesy to our guests. If they're here legally.