FBI switching back to 9mm and their reasoning...

[oldpink]

The FBI is far from getting everything right but the folks running their ballistics lab have their stuff together better than most. When the .40 was introduced it offered significant advantages over the existing 9mm bullets of the time albeit at a cost. Technology has eliminated most of the advantages that the .40 once held so it makes sense, depending on the needs of the shooter, to consider the 9mm. If the .40 can be criticized for being hard on guns designed for 9mm then I don't see how the 10mm cannot be criticized in the same fashion for being harder on guns which were originally designed for the .45acp.

The SAAMI spec for max chamber pressure of the 9mm & .40 is 35,000psi, the .45ACP is 21,000psi and the 10mm is 37,500psi. Chamber pressure is not the only consideration when talking about how much of a beating a gun takes but it is a major contributing factor.

Good points, but my 1006 was built from the ground up for 10mm.
That goes for the rest of the third generation S&W 10mm guns, too.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I thought it worked out that the 10mm killed the bad guy you shot, body and soul, and all his associates died of fright upon hearing it fire.

No, no, no. 10mm goes back in time and slaps his ancestors. Come on, guys, you know this.

 

[chipbennett]

I remember watching some gelatin tests several years ago. While the penetration was similar, wound channel was similar, there was one striking difference in the tests I watched. The gelatin was visibly rocked violently by some calibers and not by others. I have to think that would make a difference in how the person felt after getting shot.

Michael Brown disagrees.

 

[Expat]

Michael Brown disagrees.

Not even sure what that means. You mean when he was shot in the arm four times? I am sure you can come up with better examples to present to make your point.

 

[BE Mike]

The FBI has sit in an ivory tower for many years and would come forth with decrees every so often. I'm not a huge fan of them as a "lead" agency for law enforcement. That being said, I think that what phylodog and others have said about the improvements in 9mm ammo over the years has pretty much wiped out old thinking and made caliber wars regarding handgun ammo moot. Other agencies, i.e. Indiana State Police made the move to 9mm years ago and it seems like the FBI is just going with the flow, although the flow has a basis in good testing and facts. Shot placement is king and if changing to 9mm makes officers better equipped to hit their intended targets, then this is a good thing. The macho arguments are worthless. What wasn't discussed is officer motivation. I believe in incentives for officers to train with firearms and perform at high levels. With tight budgets, it is hard to improve the frequency and quality of firearms training, but it is money well-spent, IMHO.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

The FBI has sit in an ivory tower for many years and would come forth with decrees every so often. I'm not a huge fan of them as a "lead" agency for law enforcement. That being said, I think that what phylodog and others have said about the improvements in 9mm ammo over the years has pretty much wiped out old thinking and made caliber wars regarding handgun ammo moot. Other agencies, i.e. Indiana State Police made the move to 9mm years ago and it seems like the FBI is just going with the flow, although the flow has a basis in good testing and facts. Shot placement is king and if changing to 9mm makes officers better equipped to hit their intended targets, then this is a good thing. The macho arguments are worthless. What wasn't discussed is officer motivation. I believe in incentives for officers to train with firearms and perform at high levels. With tight budgets, it is hard to improve the frequency and quality of firearms training, but it is money well-spent, IMHO.

ISP carries .45s, the Sig P227. The issued gun before that was the .45 Glock 21.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Correct me if I'm misremembering but wasn't there a story floating around here on INGO a few months ago where the army is looking to replace their handguns with something and, at the very least, opening the door to something other than the 9mm?

 

[88E30M50]

When you do the math, there is a difference in the ability to do damage across the different calibers. An expanded .45 will do a larger volume of damage than an expanded 9mm, but the 9mm gives more opportunities to do damage. It generally all evens out in the end. Take a lot of smaller bites with a 9mm or fewer larger bites with a .45. Where the bigger calibers tend to do better is when you look at the amount of damage that can be done with a set number of bullets. If a person can only get 3 or 5 rounds into an attacker, the larger caliber gives a better chance of a debilitating wound. But, even that tends to even out when a practiced shooter can put more rounds into a smaller space with a 9mm than they can with a larger caliber.

In the end, caliber does not matter as much as your ability to use it effectively does. Having said that, I do have a beef with 9mm and it comes from the versatility of the 9mm cartridge. I think that way too many people convince themselves of their shooting prowess with boxes full of lightly loaded WWB target ammo, then load up with the hottest +P 9mm ammo they can lay their hands on for SD. Sure, it's easy to impress yourself when you shoot 115g target ammo. 9mm +P ammo feels a lot closer to .40 than it does to 9mm in terms of recoil and muzzle flip. I practice with handloaded .40 that's pretty consistent with my carry .40 ammo. Same goes for .45 handloads. I carry 230g std pressure Golden Sabers and practice with handloads that clock about the same as the SD ammo. One day, I'll develop a decent 9mm handload that mimics a good +P carry round. Until then, I leave the 9mm mostly for range fun.

 

[phylodog]

Correct me if I'm misremembering but wasn't there a story floating around here on INGO a few months ago where the army is looking to replace their handguns with something and, at the very least, opening the door to something other than the 9mm?

They are but the military is basically restricted to FMJ bullets which changes the rules significantly.

 

[phylodog]

When you do the math, there is a difference in the ability to do damage across the different calibers. An expanded .45 will do a larger volume of damage than an expanded 9mm, but the 9mm gives more opportunities to do damage. It generally all evens out in the end. Take a lot of smaller bites with a 9mm or fewer larger bites with a .45. Where the bigger calibers tend to do better is when you look at the amount of damage that can be done with a set number of bullets. If a person can only get 3 or 5 rounds into an attacker, the larger caliber gives a better chance of a debilitating wound. But, even that tends to even out when a practiced shooter can put more rounds into a smaller space with a 9mm than they can with a larger caliber.

In the end, caliber does not matter as much as your ability to use it effectively does. Having said that, I do have a beef with 9mm and it comes from the versatility of the 9mm cartridge. I think that way too many people convince themselves of their shooting prowess with boxes full of lightly loaded WWB target ammo, then load up with the hottest +P 9mm ammo they can lay their hands on for SD. Sure, it's easy to impress yourself when you shoot 115g target ammo. 9mm +P ammo feels a lot closer to .40 than it does to 9mm in terms of recoil and muzzle flip. I practice with handloaded .40 that's pretty consistent with my carry .40 ammo. Same goes for .45 handloads. I carry 230g std pressure Golden Sabers and practice with handloads that clock about the same as the SD ammo. One day, I'll develop a decent 9mm handload that mimics a good +P carry round. Until then, I leave the 9mm mostly for range fun.

A significant part of the technological advancements which have created the recent debates is in bullet design. Bullets are now designed to perform at a specific velocity and pushing them faster no longer means you will get improved performance. In fact, you may actually see bullet failure if you push a bullet designed for a standard velocity at +P velocities.

 

[jocmurph]

I use 9mm because it is the easiest and most affordable for me to find.

 

[KG1]

When you do the math, there is a difference in the ability to do damage across the different calibers. An expanded .45 will do a larger volume of damage than an expanded 9mm, but the 9mm gives more opportunities to do damage. It generally all evens out in the end. Take a lot of smaller bites with a 9mm or fewer larger bites with a .45. Where the bigger calibers tend to do better is when you look at the amount of damage that can be done with a set number of bullets. If a person can only get 3 or 5 rounds into an attacker, the larger caliber gives a better chance of a debilitating wound. But, even that tends to even out when a practiced shooter can put more rounds into a smaller space with a 9mm than they can with a larger caliber.

In the end, caliber does not matter as much as your ability to use it effectively does. Having said that, I do have a beef with 9mm and it comes from the versatility of the 9mm cartridge. I think that way too many people convince themselves of their shooting prowess with boxes full of lightly loaded WWB target ammo, then load up with the hottest +P 9mm ammo they can lay their hands on for SD. Sure, it's easy to impress yourself when you shoot 115g target ammo. 9mm +P ammo feels a lot closer to .40 than it does to 9mm in terms of recoil and muzzle flip. I practice with handloaded .40 that's pretty consistent with my carry .40 ammo. Same goes for .45 handloads. I carry 230g std pressure Golden Sabers and practice with handloads that clock about the same as the SD ammo. One day, I'll develop a decent 9mm handload that mimics a good +P carry round. Until then, I leave the 9mm mostly for range fun.

I agree that one should train with something similar to what they carry for SD. I have lately been into the Winchester Train & Defend 147gr 9mm line of ammunition that is designed to do exactly that. The Train line of the less expensive 147gr FMJ loading is designed to mimic the characteristics of the more expensive Defend line of 147gr. JHP.

It's an interesting concept because once you have established that your particular firearm functions reliably with the JHP you can train with the less expensive FMJ. So far it appears to be promising with my experience and the Defend JHP line is what I carry in my Sig P290.

 

[Expat]

They are but the military is basically restricted to FMJ bullets which changes the rules significantly.

The article I read said they no longer felt bound by that.
http://bearingarms.com/u-s-military-makes-monumental-shift-hollowpoint-pistol-ammunition/

 

[phylodog]

The article I read said they no longer felt bound by that.
U.S. Military Makes Monumental Shift To Hollowpoint Pistol Ammunition - Bearing Arms - hollowpoint, JHP, Modular Handgun System

That would be great news.

 

[foszoe]

I haven't tested those. We had an ability to test a limited variety of ammunition in 9mm & .40 and I went with the 147gr standard velocity based on the recommendation of the Federal Rep. The only time it didn't outperform just about everything else was through safety glass which is of least concern in my opinion.

How about hydra shock vs HST?

I switched to Critical Duty 2 or 3 years ago when it came out from Hydra Shocks. Now wondering if I should go back to Federal. My 92 always has grouped federal and then Hornady very well.

 

[KellyinAvon]

So, 9mm gives you more shots which is important since you're gonna miss 70%-80% of the time?? That's what I took from the FBI stuff. Oh yeah, and unless you bring a rifle the bad guy may not go down.

 

[in625shooter]

ISP carries .45s, the Sig P227. The issued gun before that was the .45 Glock 21.

Not critisizing I have a lot of respect for ISP, and love SIG's just an observation. ISP goes to 45 after all the years using 9, then the 40 Glock deacle back to 9 then 45 in 2 different platforms. Baby steps I guess

They are but the military is basically restricted to FMJ bullets which changes the rules significantly.

FYI The USAF has been issuing 124gr JHP for their 9mm Beretta's for all on duty Securoty Forces at stateside bases since 1999. This was due to a lot of shootings (all succsful stops with the issued NATO Ball) but the Chief AF Security Forces wanted to up the effectiveness. JAG was referred and decided the Military performs a domestic LE mission at stateside bases and poof. The amo reverts to ball at OCONUS bases. They never visited the idea of JHP or JSP for 5.56. Just the M9 and SIG M11

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Not critisizing I have a lot of respect for ISP, and love SIG's just an observation. ISP goes to 45 after all the years using 9, then the 40 Glock deacle back to 9 then 45 in 2 different platforms. Baby steps I guess

Yeah, I dunno. Just correcting the statement ISP issues 9mm. There's always someone chasing the new hotness. I figure .45 or .357 mag has been the standard for many, many years. You never hear anyone say "just as good as a 9mm". Without the siren song of free practice ammo, I'd be sticking with the .45 but I don't have any issues with the .40 either.

 

[phylodog]

So, 9mm gives you more shots which is important since you're gonna miss 70%-80% of the time?? That's what I took from the FBI stuff. Oh yeah, and unless you bring a rifle the bad guy may not go down.

It's a legitimate consideration. Hitting a target which is shooting back and moving is quite a challenge. Capacity has no place at the top of the priority list but it has a place.

 

[Hohn]

The FBI is far from getting everything right but the folks running their ballistics lab have their stuff together better than most. When the .40 was introduced it offered significant advantages over the existing 9mm bullets of the time albeit at a cost. Technology has eliminated most of the advantages that the .40 once held so it makes sense, depending on the needs of the shooter, to consider the 9mm. If the .40 can be criticized for being hard on guns designed for 9mm then I don't see how the 10mm cannot be criticized in the same fashion for being harder on guns which were originally designed for the .45acp.

The SAAMI spec for max chamber pressure of the 9mm & .40 is 35,000psi, the .45ACP is 21,000psi and the 10mm is 37,500psi. Chamber pressure is not the only consideration when talking about how much of a beating a gun takes but it is a major contributing factor.

I think power factor is the best proxy for the "beating" the gun will take. Peak pressure is only there for an instant-- it's the effective average pressure that matters. As if you needed it, it's another reason James Yeager is a clueless blowhard. You could make a 40,000psi gun that recoiled like a *****cat and lasted forever. Heck, take half the powder out of a .45 and add about 8 thousandths setback. Presto-- high pressure and low recoil.

That said, I think it's only 9s that have been scaled up to .40 that have had problems. From-scratch guns built around the .40 should be sufficiently durable.

Technology scales with caliber. The only way that the technology can disproportionately benefit the 9mm (rather than .40 or .45) is if one could demonstrate that there is a particular level of ballistic performance above which no additional performance is beneficial.


Incidentally, that is exactly what the FBI did when it first adopted 10mm. The 10mm had excellent performance, but the muzzle blast a recoil was 'excessive'. Recall that the standard FBI .38 load was 158gr @ <900fps.

They tested a subsonic 147gr 9mm and 185 .45, also around 900 fps.

They downloaded the 10mm to 950fps because it was about the same speed as the other rounds tested.


So let's be clear about what the FBI results meant: The lite 10mm (.40) at 950fps for 180gr was the best of the three loads tested FOR FBI PURPOSES.

That doesn't mean that the .40/10 is always better, or the 9, or the .45. Substituting different loads in those three calibers could produce VERY different results-- even with modern bullet technology.

Certainly, the full house 10mm has the most ballistic potential of the three.


Do yourself a favor and Google up the FBI's official announcement of the 10mm from November 1989, where Agent Hall outlines the test procedure, the rounds selected, and the thinking behind those.

Note that none of the rounds was faster than 950fps. Does that mean that there is ballistically no advantage to running velocities over 950fps in a handgun? The FBI report certainly implies that.

...and I suspect it's because that's what their .38 revolvers did.