Homeowner killed during no-knock SWAT invasion of wrong home

[steveh_131]

I have mixed feelings regarding the age of this incident. On one hand, I feel a modicum of fairness in questioning the posting of an incident over a decade old.

The incident has only been resurrected because the same poor woman had yet another family member killed by incompetent police officers. Two isolated incidents is too many for one lifetime.

 

[IndyDave1776]

The incident has only been resurrected because the same poor woman had yet another family member killed by incompetent police officers. Two isolated incidents is too many for one lifetime.

I had failed to understand this to be the case. You are right. This is a violation of an order of magnitude that one isolated incident should be it forever, like the fiasco at Kent State. Unfortunately, it seems to be a fairly frequent occurrence.

 

[rambone]

I have no beef with rooting out corrupt Cops and seeing that they get what they deserve.
I was an investigator on a case where a Cop was stealing drug money and evidence.
He got several years in the State Prison and I was glad to have helped put him there.

I think this is very commendable, Mike. Every department needs guys like you keeping the corruption and misbehavior to a minimum. I've heard you talk about this before and I give you a big .

However in this case you posted a nearly twelve year old incident that had been resolved, for better or worse, many years ago.

I now realize that it was an old article, and I didn't realize it at the time. I tried to explain why all appearances made it seem like it was current. Let's let the date go. There may still be something to learn from it.

In your forward march to vilify Police Departments nationwide you have joined the ranks of the Reckless Zealots who apparently don't give a damn about the usefulness, or even the truth, of any bit of news that can be used to further your goal. The posting of this "Ancient News" article had no other intent than to inflame the Cop Haters on this site.
Well done.
Mission accompolished....
My chosen Profession is like any other.

Again, its not about "Cop Hate." You probably have your mind made up already but it honestly isn't. Its about exposing bad laws, bad officers, bad ideas, bad spending, and bad execution. I think all of those points apply here.

Did you get accused of being a cop hater for exposing the problems on your department? Do you see how silly that is?

 

[Trigger Time]

Maybe ive went about things the wrong way and posted without knowing all the facts so what I would like is to sit down over coffee with one or more actual SWAT police officers in my area (Indy), and have them explain (not as in being interrogated, just conversation) to me the necessities of swat teams and how often or what's the trigger to deploy them. I'm really at a mix of feelings on the issue but maybe it's just from me being misinformed due to being former military and having kicked in doors and seen true "accidents" happen. Anytime loaded weapons or devices are being deployed its dangerous even with proper precautions.
I don't know if any would be willing to do that or not. All I could promise is to have an open mind and be civil for sure and just listen. I have no problems with most people especially good cops who just wanna make a good difference.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Maybe ive went about things the wrong way and posted without knowing all the facts so what I would like is to sit down over coffee with one or more actual SWAT police officers in my area (Indy), and have them explain (not as in being interrogated, just conversation) to me the necessities of swat teams and how often or what's the trigger to deploy them. I'm really at a mix of feelings on the issue but maybe it's just from me being misinformed due to being former military and having kicked in doors and seen true "accidents" happen. Anytime loaded weapons or devices are being deployed its dangerous even with proper precautions.
I don't know if any would be willing to do that or not. All I could promise is to have an open mind and be civil for sure and just listen. I have no problems with most people especially good cops who just wanna make a good difference.

You would likely have a good learning experience if afforded the opportunity, but you have to take it with the understanding that there is a reason why the IMPD SWAT team does NOT make the news. The team seems quite capable of properly securing warrants, finding the correct location, and properly executing the warrant, as opposed to some others who start by kicking in the wrong door and then proceed to go down the list of safety and general conduct fail. You are right that accidents happen, but the standards are for understandable reasons higher in domestic police work than in a combat zone. So far as I can tell, the first thing that would go a long way to prevent this type of situation would be for the police involved to learn how to read. After all, going to the wrong house is usually the first layer of fail.

 

[ModernGunner]

...Let's let the date go...

Well, I would say that the date IS relevant.

There is a constant flow of rhetoric and rantings posted on INGO, usually from the same bunch of folks, that appears to be posted for little or no other reason than to continue to incite hatred toward the law enforcement community.

These SAME folks ALSO will attempt, at times, to 'soften' the perception of their views by 'acknowledging' that this or that LEO on INGO is a 'good man', but immediately revert back to bashing cops. Isn't that the same 'false flag event' they always shout about?

But the timbre is consistent, constant, and unmistakable. They generally view cops as the 'bad guys' that don't allow them to do exactly what they want, regardless of the laws governing those actions. The cops shouldn't enforce 'bad laws', and only THEY, not the community-at-large, have the 'knowledge' or 'insight' to know WHICH laws are good and which are bad.

Curiously, it's always the laws THEY don't particularly like that are 'bad laws'. Laws that prevent THEM from doing whatever the hell they want. If it's a law that doesn't affect them, but negatively affects others, they're silent about the subject, and not about to 'protest' THOSE laws.

Folks like that are most certainly no 'friend of the police'.

 

[Caldad]

ooooops, my bad. Please accept my apology.

 

[Trigger Time]

You would likely have a good learning experience if afforded the opportunity, but you have to take it with the understanding that there is a reason why the IMPD SWAT team does NOT make the news. The team seems quite capable of properly securing warrants, finding the correct location, and properly executing the warrant, as opposed to some others who start by kicking in the wrong door and then proceed to go down the list of safety and general conduct fail. You are right that accidents happen, but the standards are for understandable reasons higher in domestic police work than in a combat zone. So far as I can tell, the first thing that would go a long way to prevent this type of situation would be for the police involved to learn how to read. After all, going to the wrong house is usually the first layer of fail.

Yep I'm also of the opinion we have real pros in Indy and I'm thankful for that. I'm glad they take their profession serious.

 

[steveh_131]

Curiously, it's always the laws THEY don't particularly like that are 'bad laws'. Laws that prevent THEM from doing whatever the hell they want. If it's a law that doesn't affect them, but negatively affects others, they're silent and not about to 'protest' THOSE laws.

Folks like that are most certainly no 'friend of the police'.

Rambone and most of the rest of us who are against the drug war on this site do not participate in drug use and have no interest in it. Yet we advocate the freedom to do so. Rambone has advocated for all sorts of liberties that I know he finds distasteful, but stands by his principles.

So who exactly did you have in mind when you made this statement? Please provide some citations.

The drug war and the drug warriors who incompetently execute it have cost our nation dearly. Both in dollars and in lives. Poorly executed raids like this are a menace to each and every one of us and to our families. That includes you and yours. I have no problem with threads that promote an awareness of this threat, with the hope that votes will follow accordingly.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Well, I would say that the date IS relevant.

There is a constant flow of rhetoric and rant posted on INGO, usually from the same bunch of folks, that appears to be posted for little or no other reason than to continue incite hatred toward the law enforcement community.

Did it ever cross you mind that the issue could be raised with an eye on addressing problems which need corrected like most any other political topic? Further, why is it any more wrong-headed to continue addressing some of these issues than for the guilty to keep doing the things being criticized?

These SAME folks ALSO will attempt, at times, to 'soften' the perception of their views by 'acknowledging' that this or that LEO on INGO is a 'good man', but immediately revert back to bashing cops. Isn't that the same 'false flag event' they always shout about?

Why is this so difficult for you to understand? There are a number of officers on INGO who to the best of my knowledge are perfectly good people. IT IS NOT MY FAULT THAT THE MAJORITY WITH WHOM I HAVE DEALT OVER THE COURSE OF MY LIFE ARE NOT GOOD PEOPLE. It isn't like I had the option to hand-pick them.

But the timbre is consistent, constant, and unmistakable. They generally view cops as the 'bad guys' that don't allow them to do exactly what they want, regardless of the laws governing those actions. The cops shouldn't enforce 'bad laws', and only THEY, not the community-at-large, has the 'knowledge' or 'insight' to know WHICH laws are good and which are bad.

We could start with something as quaint as the Constitution and the standard set at the Nuremberg trials that 'just following orders' in not an acceptable defense, fact notwithstanding that it seem more accepted every day. I will grant you that according to the law, kicking in the wrong door and killing an innocent and uninvolved citizen is considered acceptable so long as it is found to be an error made while acting in good faith. This leads directly to the fact that no one else gets any mercy for an honest mistake, even though those given the most 'understanding' are supposed to be professionals.

Curiously, it's always the laws THEY don't particularly like that are 'bad laws'. Laws that prevent THEM from doing whatever the hell they want. If it's a law that doesn't affect them, but negatively affects others, they're silent and not about to 'protest' THOSE laws.

It has nothing to do with our personal preferences. You may wish to consider a combination of the proper order in which the Constitution supersedes all other forms of law. Franklin Roosevelt managed to thoroughly pack the court resulting in some of the most horrendously wrong decisions in history and the absence of anything better than a 5-4 split since then has served to perpetuate the problem, particularly in failure to reign in government excess, but even that does not excuse some of the sociopathic behavior which has been committed in the name of enforcing the law. I fail to understand where the expectation of civilized behavior is too much to ask. You may also notice that plenty of us are just as fast to oppose a wrong/unconstitutional law that does not affect us as one that does.

Folks like that are most certainly no 'friend of the police'.

It is not my job to be a friend of the police. It is the job of the police to be friends of the communities which pay them. This means controlling criminals without terrorizing the balance of the population.

.

 

[88GT]

The incident has only been resurrected because the same poor woman had yet another family member killed by incompetent police officers. Two isolated incidents is too many for one lifetime.

But that fact didn't come out until post #12. It was not included in the OP. I doubt it was known by OP when he posted as well. It might be why the article is making rounds on the Internet again, but without that knowledge, it looks as if OP has to resort to digging up old news in order to post his rhetoric.

Ram himself admits he didn't know about the second case by omission. He excuses his posting of the original article by arguing that it was new to the feeds. If he had known about the second incident , he would have shared it in the OP.

The problem isn't so much that an old article is being used. Any one of us could have done it. Our response would have been an apologetic "my bad" for not executing the proper due diligence in vetting it before sharing it. Just as Rambone's was. But Rambone has questionable credibility among many of the membership for misrepresenting the facts and blowing stories out of proportion. More than half of his thread titles are inaccurate statements of the articles he posts. His posting integrity is compromised. Even when I agree with him, it's annoying to have to wade through the BS to find the kernel of truth. Some people have less patience for it than I. And like the cry wolf, eventually no one will listen regardless of how legit it is.

 

[steveh_131]

But that fact didn't come out until post #12. It was not included in the OP. I doubt it was known by OP when he posted as well. It might be why the article is making rounds on the Internet again, but without that knowledge, it looks as if OP has to resort to digging up old news in order to post his rhetoric.

I didn't say that he knew about it. My point is that the second incident is the reason that this story is being circulated again as news. Most of the articles about it aren't clear on the date that it happened.

Look around. Does it seem like anyone would have to resort to digging up old news in order to make this point? This crap happens all the time.

 

[blamecharles]

Color me surprised

I will attempt to use google fu for a minute and find the different dates it was released.

04/24/13 TexAgs.com - Politics

September 9, 2012 http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...qhk3D6arL3VEy9w&bvm=bv.45645796,d.aWM&cad=rja





September 22, 2012 Man Dies in Police Raid on Wrong House - Liberty Crier

01-10-2012, USA - Man Dies in Police Raid on Wrong House - Drugs Forum

1/6/2009 Man Killed During Police Raid on the Wrong House

Oct 6, 2000 different age same story DPFFL : Florida News

10/06/2000 Murder by Cops, again! - The Firing Line Forums


That is what i can find in 10 minutes

 

[Kutnupe14]

This is an incompetant, overvealous plice force.

Getting the worng house is plane and simple incompetance.

As to overzealous, I wonder if the house appeared to be a house of a criminal? If it was well kept with a nice lawn, flowers out side, painted well etc., maybe that should have been considered before breaking down a door. I know this is profiling but did any of them have half a brain and look around?

Unless the "Wanted" people are deemed to be armed and dangerous, why dot he SWAT team thing with force. The bullhorn idea above sound pretty good. If they don't comeout, tear gas.

When the military starts using these tactics, then we will too.

 

[jbombelli]

When the military starts using these tactics, then we will too.

The military calls in artillery strikes and JDAMs. You gonna start doing that too?

 

[Kutnupe14]

The military calls in artillery strikes and JDAMs. You gonna start doing that too?

Depends on threat and the collateral damage. But we'll see what goodies the feds are going to dole out this year.

 

[Tombs]

Absent checking a date on a tombstone, it is difficult to ascertain with any certainty exactly when this happened.

Regardless, this happened a llllloooooonnnnngggg time ago. Almost a whole decade and a half!

In no way does it represent or indicate what is going on today.

It doesn't?

I think it speaks volumes for why having swat teams going door to door searching houses is a public safety problem. Civil rights doesn't need to be brought up for this to still be wrong.