I thought this was extremely interesting...

[Twangbanger]

Which ties this thread into the 223 for deer thread. Can it be done? Absolutely. Can the average hunter who isnt a skilled marksman drop the deer reliably? No. That is why the standard for both of these discussions is higher; to allow greater room for error.


Its not all about the bullet. As already said its proficiency, shot placement, etc.

The capacity of the human mind, to create its own reality, select evidence to fit that reality, and convince itself of that which it wants to believe, is incredible.

 

[Hawkeye7br]

Since someone will eventually ask the question, I'll ask it now...

Does an aggressor know if he has been shot with a 22, 32, 380, 9mm, or something bigger?

And does an aggressor always continue an attack, or do they say "oh crap, that lady just shot me" and try to retreat?

I understand there is no one size fits all, and we can all agree that we should train with what we carry. But there is a reality that some people, often women, will not practice with a small center-fire handgun. Not taking sides, just an observation.

 

[Twangbanger]

Since someone will eventually ask the question, I'll ask it now...

Does an aggressor know if he has been shot with a 22, 32, 380, 9mm, or something bigger?

And does an aggressor always continue an attack, or do they say "oh crap, that lady just shot me" and try to retreat?

I understand there is no one size fits all, and we can all agree that we should train with what we carry. But there is a reality that some people, often women, will not practice with a small center-fire handgun. Not taking sides, just an observation.

The problem is does a hopped-up aggressor even know he's been shot, at all? When people are talking about "viable" self defense rounds, we're not talking about the capability of a bang to scare people. We're talking about the ability of the round to create a blood-pressure drop which commands the aggressor's compliance, when his mental state says otherwise.

I'm open to persuasion, but would like to see if any of these 22LR rounds will pass the FBI penetration tests.

The linked NRA article gives the compulsory treatment of the "history of the .22LR" (sigh), then proceeds to the usual and to-be-expected milk-jug shooting (double-sigh).

If a woman isn't going to practice with a small centerfire, she's not going to practice with a .22LR, either. It's like the "how to get my wife to vote for Trump" thread. If it ain't gonna happen, it ain't gonna happen.

If the desired objective is an effective noise-maker which will deter people with inaccurately-placed hits by a person who won't train, there's not a single aspect of the .22LR that makes it better for that.

Just trying to live in real-ville here. I'm sure the ammo companies put some work into developing these rounds, but it's still a marketing-inspired move. If someone has considered all the available information, and is consciously making a substandard choice in fully-informed consideration of extenuating factors, then that's fine. I'm all for intelligent adults considering the information and making their own intelligent decision.

But physically capable grown-azz men deluding themselves and selecting information to confirm what they want to believe, is a different matter, and the ammo companies aren't putting any "surgeon general's warning" on this stuff to discourage it.

 

[gregr]

You bring up good points.. And most of real life outcomes seem to have had way more variables than anyone ever thought. I am sure a .22 in the brain stem from behind will do a guy in. A lesser wound in a non critical area may not, at least not quickly.

I can claim no first had experience but something I have read is that a light firearm may eventually kill someone, but in the mean time he is able to continue his assault on you. It makes sense to me that the goal is to drop the bad guys blood pressure fast enough that he faints, goes into shock, or at least his vision blurs so that his ability to fight goes away.

That said, if I do not have access to a .30 caliber rifle, or a large caliber handgun, I will certainly use an available .22 rimfire to the best of my ability.

A Marine gunny taught us that "defense is the 4th letter of the alphabet, so a defensive pistol needs to start with a four". Not sure if it is true, but it is catchy.

If you punch holes in the boiler, or het the heart, it really doesn`t matter what caliber the hole is, they expire quickly eh?

For what it`s worth, I agree with the "4" philosophy, I`m a .45 acp guy. Yet still, lesser caliber sidearms kill many everyday. Israeli Mossad has shown that.

 

[gregr]

I'm sure you could find a story of a guy that killed an attacker with a pencil too, but that doesn't mean it's the best tool for self-defense.

The Masai bushman hunt and kill lions with spears. That doesn't mean my lilly white butt needs to be out there doing it.

LOL. I was only trying to stir up discussion and throw pout there, that there are various ways and tools to use for self-defense. If Mossad uses the .22 LR as an assassins tool, then, then I`m saying that makes it a viable round for defense. And the Israeli Sky Marshall illustration isn`t just some anectodical isolated event. They do this frequently!

 

[Mgderf]

I thought this might be about the .22 TCM
That uses a 40 grain bullet, but it's moving close to 2000fps at muzzle from a 5" barrel.

It is said to have knock down power close to that of the modern 9mm's.

I think it would work for personal defense, but it would never be my first choice.
A 29 grain bullet?
I think not.

 

[Robert Richardson]

Aw hell, just shoot the bad guy in his twig and berries

 

[Bugzilla]

The problem is does a hopped-up aggressor even know he's been shot, at all? When people are talking about "viable" self defense rounds, we're not talking about the capability of a bang to scare people. We're talking about the ability of the round to create a blood-pressure drop which commands the aggressor's compliance, when his mental state says otherwise.

I'm open to persuasion, but would like to see if any of these 22LR rounds will pass the FBI penetration tests.

The linked NRA article gives the compulsory treatment of the "history of the .22LR" (sigh), then proceeds to the usual and to-be-expected milk-jug shooting (double-sigh).

If a woman isn't going to practice with a small centerfire, she's not going to practice with a .22LR, either. It's like the "how to get my wife to vote for Trump" thread. If it ain't gonna happen, it ain't gonna happen.

If the desired objective is an effective noise-maker which will deter people with inaccurately-placed hits by a person who won't train, there's not a single aspect of the .22LR that makes it better for that.

Just trying to live in real-ville here. I'm sure the ammo companies put some work into developing these rounds, but it's still a marketing-inspired move. If someone has considered all the available information, and is consciously making a substandard choice in fully-informed consideration of extenuating factors, then that's fine. I'm all for intelligent adults considering the information and making their own intelligent decision.

But physically capable grown-azz men deluding themselves and selecting information to confirm what they want to believe, is a different matter, and the ammo companies aren't putting any "surgeon general's warning" on this stuff to discourage it.

From the article I posted in this thread:
The Federal Punch .22 (left) uses a flat-nose bullet design with a full nickel plating designed for maximum penetration. The Winchester Silvertip .22 LR (right) uses a plated segmented hollow point, the "petals" of which create an initial wound canal while the base continues to penetrate.

The Federal Premium Punch .22 LR was designed for penetration. In factory testing, the bullet penetrated 13.75" in 10 percent ballistic gelatin. Photo courtesy of Federal Ammunition.

 

[Leo]

.220 Swift would work. 55 Grains at 3800 fps.

 

[Jaybird1980]

Maybe someone can find the video of the couple in Pennsylvania that were shot by the neighbor over shoveling snow.

I remember that woman took a few rounds of 22 at least one at point blank to the head and the guy still had to go get a bigger gun to finish them off.

I do think it's better than nothing, and may actually slow down or repel an attacker under some circumstances but I wouldn't count on it to incapacitate.

 

[rosejm]

Looks like Paul did his review after the other thread, and this one has grown legs of its own.
So, in the interest of being thorough...

 

[DadSmith]

Federal Ammunition has introduced a 29 grain .22 LR round designed for personal protection. Has this already been covered here? I think this is extremely interesting, and it`s really, really piqued my interest in a .22 pistol for carry perhaps...

Buy Personal Defense Punch Rimfire for USD 11.99 | Federal Ammunition

Shopping for the Personal Defense Punch Rimfire - Learn more about the latest Personal Defense Punch Rimfire and other hunting or shooting gear at Federal Ammunition.

www.federalpremium.com

If using a 22lr for self-defense I suggest high velocity and the 42gr Eley force.
You'll need as much penetration as possible, and that will be best if you use the heaviest bullet your firearm can handle reliably.
Hollowpoint ammunition is also a no go because they won't expand in handgun length barrels and isn't worth buying if you are expecting expansion.

 

[bwframe]

Yet another reason to ask...

...WTF is Federal thinking?

Does Federal really think that gun owners are so stupid that we cannot see what they are doing to us?

Where is the Federal 9mm and primers back on the shelf, at competitive pricing?

Why is it that Federal is trying to blow smoke up our skirts, with silly new handgun calibers and "self defense" 22LR, when they cannot seem to give a about even trying to meet customer demand?


.

 

[Aszerigan]

The capacity of the human mind, to create its own reality, select evidence to fit that reality, and convince itself of that which it wants to believe, is incredible.

Confirmation Bias: The selection and belief in evidence that fits one's reality or political point of view (while disregarding other equally factual contradictory information). It's a heavily studied area of psychology as of late.

 

[Twangbanger]

Yet another reason to ask...

...WTF is Federal thinking?

Does Federal really think that gun owners are so stupid that we cannot see what they are doing to us?

Where is the Federal 9mm and primers back on the shelf, at competitive pricing?

Why is it that Federal is trying to blow smoke up our skirts, with silly new handgun calibers and "self defense" 22LR, when they cannot seem to give a about even trying to meet customer demand?


.

They are meeting customer demand. Lilly Retirees want to carry .22LR pocket revolvers around in their Dockers. Capitalism responded. They pay almost the same money on a per-round basis, and it uses less materials. No-brainer, really.

If anybody watched the "Paul H" video in rosejm's post above, he basically found that the Federal Punch, which was designed for penetration, doesn't even penetrate any farther than Remington Yellowjackets, et alia.

It's a marketing move.

"But Mossad..."

30 Carry, anyone?

 

[BE Mike]

Assuming that the OP's claims are true, I suggest that the .22 round was chosen by mossad, not for its ability to incapacitate, but for it's superior ability to be suppressed. https://taskandpurpose.com/gear-tech/history-cias-silent-pistol-choice/ The Israeli "sky marshal" story would also not suggest that it is a superior stopper, but the choice would likely be because of the user's ability to put rounds on the target accurately, as well as, the .22's lack of over-penetration which would be a consideration for the aircraft's structural integrity and concern for innocent bystanders. Nothing would suggest that for self-defense scenarios, the .22 lr cartridge would be a good replacement for most common centerfire cartridges.

 

[Bugzilla]

Maybe someone can find the video of the couple in Pennsylvania that were shot by the neighbor over shoveling snow.

I remember that woman took a few rounds of 22 at least one at point blank to the head and the guy still had to go get a bigger gun to finish them off.

I do think it's better than nothing, and may actually slow down or repel an attacker under some circumstances but I wouldn't count on it to incapacitate.

VIDEO: 3 killed in Pennsylvania snow-removal dispute - Cayman Marl Road

(CMR) A Pennsylvania man shot and killed his neighbors and then killed himself in a snow-removal dispute on Monday after a major storm dumped more than 30 inches of snow in parts of the United States. Jeffrey Spaide fatally shot his neighbors, James Goy and his wife, Lisa Goy, before killing...

caymanmarlroad.com

 

[Jaybird1980]

VIDEO: 3 killed in Pennsylvania snow-removal dispute - Cayman Marl Road

(CMR) A Pennsylvania man shot and killed his neighbors and then killed himself in a snow-removal dispute on Monday after a major storm dumped more than 30 inches of snow in parts of the United States. Jeffrey Spaide fatally shot his neighbors, James Goy and his wife, Lisa Goy, before killing...

caymanmarlroad.com

That's the one.

 

[Lpherr]

VIDEO: 3 killed in Pennsylvania snow-removal dispute - Cayman Marl Road

(CMR) A Pennsylvania man shot and killed his neighbors and then killed himself in a snow-removal dispute on Monday after a major storm dumped more than 30 inches of snow in parts of the United States. Jeffrey Spaide fatally shot his neighbors, James Goy and his wife, Lisa Goy, before killing...

caymanmarlroad.com

The comments... did you read the comments?
We are screwed.

 

[AndreusMaximus]

The comments... did you read the comments?
We are screwed.

Oh, crap. I went to look, thinking it was just going to be the usual anti-gun nonsense, but then to see people in there actually trying to justify the murder... Holy Smokes.