Legality: Indiana Deer Hunting w/300BLK AR15 Pistol w/ Sig SB15 Arm Brace

[avboiler11]

Maybe I have been mislead, but I was under the impression that the hunting laws here stated that you couldnt use rifle rounds, only shotgun (slugs, shot) and pistol calibers. Having a .300 BLK, even in pistol form, would still be using a rifle round to hunt with, and from what I gathered here in IN, thats a no-no.

Can someone clarify?

http://www.eregulations.com/indiana/hunting/deer-regulations/

Handguns, other than muzzleloading, must have a barrel at least 4 inches long and must fire a bullet of .243-inch diameter or larger. The handgun cartridge case, without the bullet, must be at least 1.16 inches long. Full metal-jacketed bullets are not permitted. The handgun must not be a rifle that has a barrel less than 18 inches or be designed or redesigned to be fired from the shoulder.

Any caliber that meets that basic caliber/min case length requirement (including 300 BLK, 243 Winchester, etc.) is perfectly legal from a HANDGUN, be that handgun a TC Contender/Encore, Savage Striker, Remington XP100, etc.

One might note that the last sentence, "The handgun must not be a rifle that..." should settle the Sig PSB question, as the BATFE has clearly ruled that use of a Sig Brace, from the shoulder, does NOT make a pistol into a rifle.

 

[bwframe]

One might note that the last sentence, "The handgun must not be a rifle that..." should settle the Sig PSB question, as the BATFE has clearly ruled that use of a Sig Brace, from the shoulder, does NOT make a pistol into a rifle.

Just to play devils advocate and complicate things further;
Is using the federal law to justify adapting an Indiana hunting regulation legit? Isn't it Indiana's LTCH that supersedes the federal law making it a felony to have a firearm within 1000 feet of a school?

 

[avboiler11]

Just to play devils advocate and complicate things further;
Is using the federal law to justify adapting an Indiana hunting regulation legit?

Existing DNR regulation does not currently prohibit or specifically address the Sig PSB.

The BATFE has ruled in its compliance letters that the Sig PSB does not constitute a rifle stock, even if used to fire from the shoulder, because it was not designed with the purpose of firing from the shoulder.

Given the existence of those BATFE compliance letters, it would be a tall order IMO for the State to make a compelling argument that the PSB "redesigns" a pistol to be fired from the shoulder when Uncle Sam explicitly says it does not.

Of course, that's not to say a CO and/or Prosecutor wouldn't see things differently and cause somebody an expensive legal headache...

 

[N_K_1984]

Just out of curiosity, why do you want to?

Because, America. Because, freedom. Why do you want to own, shoot, or hunt with any of the guns you own??? I understand your concern, but "Why" isn't the question here, Bob. 300BLK is perfectly suitable for deer, and I want to use it. AND it's legal in a pistol. I know that for a fact. I see the Sig SB15 having some merit when it comes to it's hunting applications. I want to be sure I'm 100% compliant with the law, because I'm a law abiding citizen. I'm not a traditional, old school hunter. I want to hike/hunt like I did last year. Humping a shotgun (my only other deer legal firearm) through dense woods sucks, ask me how I know. I want something light, compact, and easy to carry. Despite what some arm chair commandos say about 300BLK it will put down deer. NOW, my 300BLK AR pistol wears a Sig SB15, if I need to take it off to hunt, I will; no issue there. My 300BLK pistol is deer legal without it, no problem. It's whether I can utilize the SB15 on my pistol that I'm worried about. Just looking to resolve any legality issues in regard to IN DNR. If DNR says no, I won't argue. If they have said yes already, to someone, that's what I want to see in writing. <- That last sentence is key.

3 weeks now, no official answer from Indiana DNR.

 

[AmericanBob]

Because, America. Because, freedom. Why do you want to own, shoot, or hunt with any of the guns you own??? I understand your concern, but "Why" isn't the question here, Bob. 300BLK is perfectly suitable for deer, and I want to use it. AND it's legal in a pistol. I know that for a fact. I see the Sig SB15 having some merit when it comes to it's hunting applications. I want to be sure I'm 100% compliant with the law, because I'm a law abiding citizen. I'm not a traditional, old school hunter. I want to hike/hunt like I did last year. Humping a shotgun (my only other deer legal firearm) through dense woods sucks, ask me how I know. I want something light, compact, and easy to carry. Despite what some arm chair commandos say about 300BLK it will put down deer. NOW, my 300BLK AR pistol wears a Sig SB15, if I need to take it off to hunt, I will; no issue there. My 300BLK pistol is deer legal without it, no problem. It's whether I can utilize the SB15 on my pistol that I'm worried about. Just looking to resolve any legality issues in regard to IN DNR. If DNR says no, I won't argue. If they have said yes already, to someone, that's what I want to see in writing. <- That last sentence is key.

3 weeks now, no official answer from Indiana DNR.

Right on. No worries. I was just curious as to whether this was "Because I can and want to" or "I want to see what this does to a deer". I already ruled out that you were trying to extend your range. I know that wouldn't be the round for it. I do understand your concern with wanting to be absolutely kosher with the DNR. They can really jack your world up.

Good luck with your endeavor, and post pics when it's all said and done!

 

[N_K_1984]

Right on, Bob! That is your name right, Bob? I'm gonna call you Bob anyway.

No worries here on my end. Not only will I (hopefully) post pics of a harvested deer, but I'll (also hopefully) post some formal communication from the IN DNR. I can't be the only guy thinking about the combination of deer, 300BLK, and a Sig SB15...

 

[MattCFII]

I agree I could see DNR going either way on it. Yes, BATFE can't tell you not to use the brace as a stock. But that is only because the BATFE can only control what they define as a pistol as how it was designed to be used, not how it is actually used. DNR is more about "sportsmanship" and tells us all the time how to use weapons, i.e. the cartridge restrictions we are trying to get around in the first place. I agree that DNR probably can't tell you it is a stock by design, on the other hand I can see DNR saying that they can tell you not to use it as a stock due to the spirit of the rules in the handbook.

No matter what, I think you would have a hard time explaining it to a Conversation Officer that wasn't familiar with the arm brace concept unless you had something in writing from the DNR, especially if he saw you shouldering it. You might win in the long run but it is going to be a headache in the process. I can't remember, could the Conservation Officer arrest you for that violation or just ticket you?

However, if the DNR came back and said you could use the brace shouldered, I will probably finally be buying a .300BLK upper. Even though growing up I was enamored with the .300 whisper, without a suppressor I keep telling myself they are just as good as my 7.62x39 AKs which I have been using much longer than ARs. But deer hunting would finally be enough to get me on the .300BLK bandwagon even though I've been looking at a .458 upper. I might still do it with if I could just keep the brace on and not shoulder it, but having to take it off might be a deal breaker. It is on a KAK Super Brace tube that I hair sprayed on to keep it from rotating. While I am ok paying the inflated price of the brace once, I don't have a lot of faith in the brace's material standing up to taking it on and off a lot.

BTW, to whoever says .300BLK is bad for deer, it is almost the same as 7.62x39 which is almost the same as .30-30, the classic medium range deer cartridge.

Would this mean that a draco in 7.62X39 would also fall in as being ok?

Yes, always wanted to try the Draco or M92 off of some shooting sticks or a stand that had rests but in the long run I sold them before dear season this past year when I finally got back to hunting.

 

[Fargo]

The DNR is very unlikely to respond, they do not do advisory opinions like the feds.

The federal definition has nothing to with the state law definition. Do not use it, forget it exists.

The title 35 state law definition, last I looked, was found in 35-47-1-6.

IC 35-47-1-6
"Handgun"
Sec. 6. "Handgun" means any firearm:
(1) designed or adapted so as to be aimed and fired from one (1) hand, regardless of barrel length; or
(2) any firearm with:
(A) a barrel less than sixteen (16) inches in length; or
(B) an overall length of less than twenty-six (26) inches.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.

I believe, but am not certain, this is the definition the DNR uses.

312 IAC 9-3-3 Equipment for deer hunting also gives additional requirements.

 

[MattCFII]

That 2A and 2B means a SBR is a handgun under Indiana law, but I think the deer hunting equipment laws prevents it due to the stock IIRC.

 

[Fargo]

That 2A and 2B means a SBR is a handgun under Indiana law, but I think the deer hunting equipment laws prevents it due to the stock IIRC.

Yes, the posted IAC excludes SBRs from the legal deer weapons.

 

[N_K_1984]

IC 35-47-1-6
"Handgun"
Sec. 6. "Handgun" means any firearm:
(1) designed or adapted so as to be aimed and fired from one (1) hand, regardless of barrel length...

Is that not the definition of an AR pistol w/ Sig SB15 Arm Brace? My major concern is that the SB15 looks like a stock, and could be confused to be a stock, when it's clearly not a stock and my pistol is clearly not an SBR.

...and call me crazy here, but who shoots a Thompson Center pistol, or any other pistol for that matter one handed when hunting????

 

[avboiler11]

Is that not the definition of an AR pistol w/ Sig SB15 Arm Brace?

Indeed it is.

My major concern is that the SB15 looks like a stock, and could be confused to be a stock, when it's clearly not a stock and my pistol is clearly not an SBR.

That's where both ATF compliance letters stating the SB15 is in fact NOT a stock *should*, in theory, easily educate the "confused" into being informed with minimal effort.

...and call me crazy here, but who shoots a Thompson Center pistol, or any other pistol for that matter one handed when hunting????

Nobody...but it was still *designed* to be aimed and fired with one hand...

 

[MattCFII]

"A handgun must:
(A) conform to the requirements of IC 35-47-2;
(B) have a barrel at least four (4) inches long;
(C) fire a bullet of two hundred forty-three thousandths (.243) inch diameter or larger; and
(D) not be a rifle that has a barrel less than eighteen (18) inches or is designed or redesigned to be fired from the shoulder."
Deer hunting handgun requirements. With A, It is definitely a handgun under IC, but D is the sticky wicket. That's the SBR restriction, and if a Conservation Officer sees you shoulder that I think you have a hard time arguing that it has not been redesigned to be fired from the shoulder even if it is a handgun under IC. I think if you didn't shoulder it in hunting use you are ok. Again BATFE can't tell us how to handle a handgun, but DNR can while hunting.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Again BATFE can't tell us how to handle a handgun, but DNR can while hunting.

This is my issue with using the brace for deer. If you were seen shouldering it game over.

I plan on using an AK pistol this year but no brace. Good luck whatever you decide.

 

[DownByTheTracks]

Is your OAL less than 26" with the arm brace attached?

 

[MattCFII]

Is your OAL less than 26" with the arm brace attached?

Why does it matter? Are you saying to be under 26"? I checked last night and mine with the 10.5" barrel and the longer KAK brace tube is 28" so by my understanding of IC 35-47-2 B it's not a handgun, but INAL, maybe it still falls under A, not sure how IC "or" works in that case. But if I got it back underwith a 7.5"ish .300BLK upper (I assume they make them that short) or change the tube, it could be a deer legal handgun then. If my understanding if it was over 26" it would be a rifle by IC amd .300BLK would then be out even though without a stock it is in that BATFE non-rifle "arm gun" gray area.

 

[Hookeye]

I thought the gun just rested in the brace, was not attached.

 

[Hookeye]

FWIW I normally shoot with both on the grip, but have taken a couple of deer with wheelguns one handed.

I do fire my TCs two handed, both hands on the grip. Can shoot them with one hand on the forend, and it works well, but feels funky to me.

With the AR pistol and arm brace deal you can end up with 3 contact areas: fore-end, grip and arm brace.
Might make things a bit easier, dunno, haven't tried one.

 

[DownByTheTracks]

Why does it matter? Are you saying to be under 26"? I checked last night and mine with the 10.5" barrel and the longer KAK brace tube is 28" so by my understanding of IC 35-47-2 B it's not a handgun, but INAL, maybe it still falls under A, not sure how IC "or" works in that case. But if I got it back underwith a 7.5"ish .300BLK upper (I assume they make them that short) or change the tube, it could be a deer legal handgun then. If my understanding if it was over 26" it would be a rifle by IC amd .300BLK would then be out even though without a stock it is in that BATFE non-rifle "arm gun" gray area.

This is why it matters. It doesn't matter what BATFE says, if State law is more restrictive than Federal law then you have to go by State law. In this case, it appears that the State of Indiana would not consider a 28" OAL 300 BLK a handgun, therefore it would not be considered legal hunting equipment.

Another example of State trumps Fed is that BATFE says SBS's are legal, Indiana says they aren't; so we can't legally have SBS's here.

 

[Hookeye]

I doubt the brace (since not directly attached to the gun) changes the legal length of the handgun.

They'd call it a stock if it did.