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Legality: Indiana Deer Hunting w/300BLK AR15 Pistol w/ Sig SB15 Arm Brace
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Again Federally, yes. But State, I'm not sure. My measurement was with a Blast Master linear comp on it, so it would be 27ish in the BATFE sense, but I would feel most comfortable under 26" because I wouldn't want to get in an argument with a Conservation Officer, "no really, you need to screw that weird looking non-hunting thing of the front before you pull out your measuring tape to see if my strange pistol kinda thing is legal in length and ignore this thing that looks like a stock while we are at it." I know there are gun guys Conservation Officer that would not be shocked by it, but more traditional guys a braced AR pistol would be very different.
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How much sway are the CO's gonna have or even care to have? They'll likely not be staking out random hunters to check their gun's legality. They'll be responding to calls/texts/pics (probably by other hunters) of a man hunting with a "sub-machine gun." Won't they just err on the side of letting a judge decide?
OP has done that and hasn't gotten a response.
Yeah, that's page 1, post 1 stuff, bro. But it's all good.
Well, here's an update, I emailed Rep. Eric Koch. I sent him a SAAMI cartridge drawing, official BATFE letters approving the use of the Sig SB15, and a picture of a 10" 300BLK AR15 Pistol with Sig SB15. He has responded and told me that they will get a response from the DNR.
To Rep. Koch:
From Rep. Koch:
I'm not holding my breath, as it is what it is. At least I'm getting my question out there; that's the important thing. If you want an official decision, you ask an official. I'll keep my fingers crossed.
jblomenberg16
Grandmaster
Last hunting season a few of us from the forum were contacted by the DNR regarding the use of 300BLK pistols. In my case, the CO that was dispatched specifically referenced a thread and picture that I posted on INGO showing my kill and my gun. After a pretty intense interview and me going through the IC in detail proving that it was a proper weapon for hunting and we had agreement point by point. He even took a tape measure and checked OAL, at which point I reminded him that the muzzle device was not permanent, and thus did not count in the OAL. He called me back a few days later mentioning that he contacted the ATF to confirm that an AR15 with a pistol buffer tube was in fact considered a "pistol" and not an SBR. He did say he personally didn't think that an AR pistol [chambered in a rifle round that meets the caliber requirements] met the "intent" of the Indiana Code regarding the definition of a pistol. I asked him if it was still "legal" to hunt with it and he did confirm that it was compliant with IC, but that he expected other CO's to have the same questions he did should they run across another hunter using one. He also made mention that I new the IC very well and had "clearly done my homework."
The lesson here is:
1) The DNR is apparently monitoring INGO, or was tipped off by someone reading INGO.
2) Hunting with a 300BLK AR pistol is technically legal if you meet all of the definitions in the code regarding total length, caliber, etc.
3) Expect that if you encounter a CO while hunting with a AR-15 Pistol, that you will be asked a lot of questions, and most likely have to prove point by point that it is legal.
4) If you do get questioned, having the Sig Brace will probably generate a lot of interest, and probably include some follow up for clarification.
5) I would recommend having the IC with you even if you don't have the Sig Brace, as it will be a handy reference item for you to use in discussions with a CO. Doing your homework will help show that you aren't some shmuck out intentionally breaking the law.
The lesson here is:
1) The DNR is apparently monitoring INGO, or was tipped off by someone reading INGO.
2) Hunting with a 300BLK AR pistol is technically legal if you meet all of the definitions in the code regarding total length, caliber, etc.
3) Expect that if you encounter a CO while hunting with a AR-15 Pistol, that you will be asked a lot of questions, and most likely have to prove point by point that it is legal.
4) If you do get questioned, having the Sig Brace will probably generate a lot of interest, and probably include some follow up for clarification.
5) I would recommend having the IC with you even if you don't have the Sig Brace, as it will be a handy reference item for you to use in discussions with a CO. Doing your homework will help show that you aren't some shmuck out intentionally breaking the law.
Rep sent! Thank you very much for sharing that! Do you have a link to your original thread? I wonder if they did a IP search or just took your personal information from your forum name and profile to find you. I think that's a deal breaker for me on the brace at least.
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From Chris Smith, Deputy Director Indiana Department of Natural Resources
You'll notice in the above response that Mr. Smith misquoted the Indiana Law. The "AND" in his statement is supposed to be an "OR." This makes 100%, ALL THE DIFFERENCE, in how a handgun is identified. <--- KEEP THIS IN MIND WHILE READING HIS EMAIL!!!
IC 35-47-1-6
"Handgun"
Sec. 6. "Handgun" means any firearm:
(1) designed or adapted so as to be aimed and fired from one (1) hand, regardless of barrel length; or
(2) any firearm with:
(A) a barrel less than sixteen (16) inches in length; or
(B) an overall length of less than twenty-six (26) inches.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.
Posted from: http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/2004/title35/ar47/ch1.html
The picture I provided was of a 300BLK AR15 Pistol w/ Sig SB15 Arm Brace installed. Per what he states in his email response, as long as the pistol in question meets the minimal barrel length and OAL requirement, it is good to go. He also received, from me, a copy of the BATFE letter in regard to their approval of the Sig SB15 Arm Brace. I plan to print the official email and carry it with me in my pack.
My attached, supporting documentation:
Screenshot of Email from Deputy Director Smith, IN DNR:
You'll notice in the above response that Mr. Smith misquoted the Indiana Law. The "AND" in his statement is supposed to be an "OR." This makes 100%, ALL THE DIFFERENCE, in how a handgun is identified. <--- KEEP THIS IN MIND WHILE READING HIS EMAIL!!!
IC 35-47-1-6
"Handgun"
Sec. 6. "Handgun" means any firearm:
(1) designed or adapted so as to be aimed and fired from one (1) hand, regardless of barrel length; or
(2) any firearm with:
(A) a barrel less than sixteen (16) inches in length; or
(B) an overall length of less than twenty-six (26) inches.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.
Posted from: http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/2004/title35/ar47/ch1.html
The picture I provided was of a 300BLK AR15 Pistol w/ Sig SB15 Arm Brace installed. Per what he states in his email response, as long as the pistol in question meets the minimal barrel length and OAL requirement, it is good to go. He also received, from me, a copy of the BATFE letter in regard to their approval of the Sig SB15 Arm Brace. I plan to print the official email and carry it with me in my pack.
My attached, supporting documentation:
Screenshot of Email from Deputy Director Smith, IN DNR:
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LETS BE CLEAR ABOUT THIS: The Sig SB15 is NOT REDESIGNED TO BE FIRED FROM THE SHOULDER. The Sig SB15 is not a buttstock. It is an Arm Brace. That being said, the BATFE has declared that shouldering the Sig SB15 DOES NOT change the definition of a pistol. I'm not a lawyer. I would keep a copy of the BATFE letter with you on your hunt.
...stay tuned, I will print the email, scan it, and post it in this thread.
ETA: Page 5 comment #50.
...stay tuned, I will print the email, scan it, and post it in this thread.
ETA: Page 5 comment #50.
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I'm convinced due to your work that DNR would accept it used as a brace or just on there. I agree that BATFE definition of of redesign as a stock is not met and have believed that since it came out due to the reasons listed in the letter. Preaching to the chior there buddy.
Respectfully though, I'm not convinced that DNR will use the same definition of "redesgined" as BATFE if you shoulder it while hunting since they can regulate hunting more deeply. If they usually defer automatically to BATFE's rulings in case law and general operations then I would, but I just honestly don't know enough about how DNR operates on firearm definitions. Jblomenberg16's post with the Conservation Officer investigation seems support that they will defer to BATFE in that he pointed out the muzzle device was removable and not part of the OAL, BATFE ruling, but that is one CO in one instance. Can anybody shed some light on if DNR always uses BATFE definitions?
Respectfully though, I'm not convinced that DNR will use the same definition of "redesgined" as BATFE if you shoulder it while hunting since they can regulate hunting more deeply. If they usually defer automatically to BATFE's rulings in case law and general operations then I would, but I just honestly don't know enough about how DNR operates on firearm definitions. Jblomenberg16's post with the Conservation Officer investigation seems support that they will defer to BATFE in that he pointed out the muzzle device was removable and not part of the OAL, BATFE ruling, but that is one CO in one instance. Can anybody shed some light on if DNR always uses BATFE definitions?
digitalrebel80
Sharpshooter
What is the meaning of the or? If it meets 2a or 2b its a handgun or it has to meet 2a and 2b to be a handgun?
(1) or 2a or 2b, but be careful of the additional requirements in the admin code.
That OR that you highlight red in my INAL understanding would mean that by that IC that SBRs are basically recognized as pistols by Indiana code. But for as I understand it only for hunting, 312 IAC 9-3-3 goes further to define a handgun "not... ...redesigned to be fired from the shoulder." The OR between 2A and 2B in my reading would mean that I could have a Indiana "pistol" 27" long with a 15" barrel OR a Indiana "pistol" with a 17" barrel that is 25" OAL. But with DownbytheTracks concern and jblomenberg16's expereince, they seem to be maybe more along the lines of the federal definition of anything over 26" being not a pistol despite short barrel length, but also not a rifle if it does not have a stock. Again another place were State and Federal differ.
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Yes, most federal SBR's are pistols under Indiana law and so require a LTCH to be carried about. Also, it will be a pistol regardless of OAL if the bbl is under 16. It will also be a pistol if OAL is under 26, regardless of bbl length.
I would also be careful about the unfixed muzzle device part. I don't know of an Indiana case on it and I am doubtful the Indiana courts would adopt the federal rule.
I agree with your reading that for instance under IC my OAL 28" (27" with muzzle device removed) braced AR with a 10.5" barrel would be a Indiana pistol by it's barrel length alone. I too have the same concern with the removable muzzle device because they could always decided to unborrow BATFE definition of barrel length since I don't see it in the code.
Although in practice:
If it is the same picture in a thread I found, it has a less than 16" barrel which would mean no OAL length test, but again that could just be a individual CO just checking each line by line and not close reading the ors and ands.
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