LTCH section on the 4473 at Bradis?

[Dirtebiker]

If we are selling a long gun we generally don't ask if you have a LTCH. If you are purchasing a handgun then we generally ask so we know how to send the firearm out the door. It has no bearing on the purchasing at all.

We used to put them in a bag and staple it shut which was enough to satisfy most LEO. We have begun using a Zip-tie to make it a little more secure

A zip tie on the bag? Or on the gun?
I've never seen that question on a 4473.
This is just Bradis' policy, correct?
What difference does it make how it leaves the store? Couldn't I just take the gun out of your "secure wrapper" and carry it out however I want?

 

[possum_128]

That's it.

We ask because if the customer does not have a LTCH, we need to seal the bag. Otherwise, it has no bearing on the purchase process whatsoever.

That's odd, No one has ever asked for mine there and like some others I have bought 9 or 10 from you guys, new policy?

 

[kludge]

I thought "secure wrapper" was changed to "secured in a case" with the new pistol transporting law.

hmmm...

 

[NHT3]

I've never see that done at ANY other shop in Indy and I frequent all the local ones.
I guess everyone else is breaking the law?
[FONT=&quot]NRA Life member [/FONT][FONT=&quot]GSSF member[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Gunsite graduate Certified Glock armorer[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]1911 Mechanic[/FONT]

 

[cosermann]

If you routinely run a NICS check, I don't see any point in asking for the LTCH, if the only difference it makes is that you seal a "bag."

I mean really. The transportation of a sold firearm isn't the dealer's responsibility, it's the buyers.

Why put any information on a federal form that doesn't need to be there?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

thought "secure wrapper" was changed to "secured in a case" with the new pistol transporting law.

Correct.

My question, what if the buyer walked or bicycled to Bradis? Does Bradis not give him the pistol?

 

[chezuki]

The responsibility of the shop ends at the NICS check. At that point if you want to duck tape the pistol to your forehead and pogo-stick home with or without a license, it's none of their business and not their responsibility.

 

[shooter521]

A zip tie on the bag? Or on the gun?

Typically we zip tie the cases that are too large to fit into a bag (i.e. Springfield).

I've never seen that question on a 4473.

It has been there a LONG time.

This is just Bradis' policy, correct? What difference does it make how it leaves the store? Couldn't I just take the gun out of your "secure wrapper" and carry it out however I want?

It is my understanding that if one does not have an LTCH, the law requires you to transport the handgun in a secure container. Thus, we secure it for you before you leave. What you do with it after you leave the shop is on you.

I can remember purchasing handguns with my Pink slip a few years ago at GS's with no NCIS check.

LOL. It's NICS (National Instant Check System)... NCIS is a police procedural show on CBS.

 

[kludge]

Correct.

My question, what if the buyer walked or bicycled to Bradis? Does Bradis not give him the pistol?

LOL. It appears that walking home is not legal.

A cyclist would have to wear a backpack or have saddle bags and place the case in the backpack so that the handgun is "not readily accessible".

And that's only if a bike is a "vehicle" under state law.

But what am I saying you're the lawyer.

The new law perhaps created just as many problems as it solved.

At least the people in our pistol classes are committing "misdemeanors" on a technicality anymore.

ETA: and with respect to bicycles... I've always wondered if my voice counts as being "equipped with a bell or other device capable of giving a signal audible for a distance of at least one hundred (100) feet". I don't know anyone who rides a bike who has such a device.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I've never been asked for my LTCH anywhere.

Apparently the stapled bag thing has been a Bradis thing for many years. A friend and fellow LEO had his bag stapled shut because the lady clerk told him his LEO credentials only allowed him to carry his duty weapon. His last trip to Bradis, he said. That's probably been 8-9 years ago, so I'd say its not a new policy.

 

[cosermann]

Hypothetically, a customer might say he has one, but not on him and can't remember the number, so it's not unnecessarily recorded on a Federal form.


As much as I like Bradis, I'm not keen on the collection of information unnecessarily.

 

[patience0830]

Last time I bought one at Cabelas in Hammond they taped the dickens out of the package and walked me out like usual. No questions about LTCH were asked.

 

[canav844]

FWIW I've heard it asked at Bradi's since I moved to IN and could walk out the door with a firearm there. I've only bought long guns from them, so the LTCH hasn't been asked of me, but I tend to be OCing when I'm there anyways, so there's the implication.

I know the IN law used to be much more strict, and unfortunately I don't have the old IC on hand to quote, but I remember it being very specific about where and how a firearm could leave your property without an LTCH; so I can see where this once may have been prudent. As it currently stands here is the IC Indiana Code 35-47-2

IC 35-47-2-1
Carrying a handgun without being licensed; exceptions; person convicted of domestic battery
Sec. 1. (a) Except as provided in subsections (b) and (c) and section 2 of this chapter, a person shall not carry a handgun in any vehicle or on or about the person's body without being licensed under this chapter to carry a handgun.
(b) Except as provided in subsection (c), a person may carry a handgun without being licensed under this chapter to carry a handgun if:
(1) the person carries the handgun on or about the person's body in or on property that is owned, leased, rented, or otherwise legally controlled by the person;
(2) the person carries the handgun on or about the person's body while lawfully present in or on property that is owned, leased, rented, or otherwise legally controlled by another person, if the person:
(A) has the consent of the owner, renter, lessor, or person who legally controls the property to have the handgun on the premises;
(B) is attending a firearms related event on the property, including a gun show, firearms expo, gun owner's club or convention, hunting club, shooting club, or training course; or
(C) is on the property to receive firearms related services, including the repair, maintenance, or modification of a firearm;
(3) the person carries the handgun in a vehicle that is owned, leased, rented, or otherwise legally controlled by the person, if the handgun is:
(A) unloaded;
(B) not readily accessible; and
(C) secured in a case;
(4) the person carries the handgun while lawfully present in a vehicle that is owned, leased, rented, or otherwise legally controlled by another person, if the handgun is:
(A) unloaded;
(B) not readily accessible; and
(C) secured in a case; or
(5) the person carries the handgun:
(A) at a shooting range (as defined in IC 14-22-31.5-3);
(B) while attending a firearms instructional course; or
(C) while engaged in a legal hunting activity. (c) Unless the person's right to possess a firearm has been restored under IC 35-47-4-7, a person who has been convicted of domestic battery under IC 35-42-2-1.3 may not possess or carry a handgun.
(d) This section may be not construed:
(1) to prohibit a person who owns, leases, rents, or otherwise legally controls private property from regulating or prohibiting the possession of firearms on the private property;
(2) to allow a person to adopt or enforce an ordinance, resolution, policy, or rule that:
(A) prohibits; or
(B) has the effect of prohibiting;
an employee of the person from possessing a firearm or ammunition that is locked in the trunk of the employee's vehicle, kept in the glove compartment of the employee's locked vehicle, or stored out of plain sight in the employee's locked vehicle, unless the person's adoption or enforcement of the ordinance, resolution, policy, or rule is allowed under IC 34-28-7-2(b); or
(3) to allow a person to adopt or enforce a law, statute, ordinance, resolution, policy, or rule that allows a person to possess or transport a firearm or ammunition if the person is prohibited from possessing or transporting the firearm or ammunition by state or federal law.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32. Amended by P.L.326-1987, SEC.1; P.L.195-2003, SEC.6; P.L.98-2004, SEC.155; P.L.118-2007, SEC.35; P.L.164-2011, SEC.1; P.L.6-2012, SEC.231.

And the fact that purchasing the firearm would presumably count as firearms related service, they should be ok on Bradi's property.

I read that as the firearm be secure in the case, not that the case be secured. Y'all can discount me the savings of cost of staples next time I'm in if it holds up to your lawyers advice.

Of course, should the answer be yes to the LTCH question I'd imagine an offer for sale of ammo, holster and use of a safe backstop to load up, holster up and carry out would be next.

 

[churchmouse]

That's it.

We ask because if the customer does not have a LTCH, we need to seal the bag. Otherwise, it has no bearing on the purchase process whatsoever.

This was the explanation I got when the question was put to me.

 

[R33D0]

The responsibility of the shop ends at the NICS check. At that point if you want to duck tape the pistol to your forehead and pogo-stick home with or without a license, it's none of their business and not their responsibility.

Unless the shop is located in a school zone, then it must be transported out of store in a lock box or case.

 

[LANShark42]

To quote Sam Axe: "...bunch of *****y little girls..."

 

[merotek]

I went to Bradis yesterday to pick up the RIA 1911 10mm they got in for me (thanks guys!) and while the guy was looking over the 4473 I filled out, he asked me if I had a LTCH. This kinda threw me since I have bought 4-5 handguns from them over the last 5 years, and in buying about 40 different handguns from dealers since the NICS check went into effect and dealers no longer needed to see a LTCH to avoid the waiting period, this was the first time I'd ever been asked to see my LTCH by a dealer.

When I inquired about it, I was told they always did it (did I mention I'd bought several handguns from them in the last five years?). Sure enough there is a space on the 4473 for a LTCH number.

So, is this new policy, old policy that had not been enforced on me there before, or did I just look shady enough that they wanted an extra check? I am deliberately NOT asking in the Bradis forum because I'd like to hear from customers if they have had to show a LTCH at Bradis to buy a handgun.

They ask if you have it, they include it on the form, but they don't require it to make a purchase. This has been the story on 3 handgun purchases in the last 6 months there for me.

 

[merotek]

If we are selling a long gun we generally don't ask if you have a LTCH. If you are purchasing a handgun then we generally ask so we know how to send the firearm out the door. It has no bearing on the purchasing at all.

We used to put them in a bag and staple it shut which was enough to satisfy most LEO. We have begun using a Zip-tie to make it a little more secure

HAHA! I was in the shop when you all decided to start using the Zipties, in reality the decision was made because some of the pistol cases (xdm comes to mind) were to large to fit inside the bags

I feel like it is a service Bradis does by asking for the LTCH and securing the gun if you do not have one, keeps someone who may not know the law out of trouble on the way home

 

[Mac-1917]

I have purchased 5 firearms in last two years from Bradis and also been present when my father purchased 3. Never once were either of asked about LTCH or were the paper bags stapled.

Policy that is just thrown out the window when they are busy?

 

[MikeDVB]

I've never been asked at Bradis but I tend to go in with my firearm holstered on my hip [unloaded, slide locked back].