New York Fire Department must dumb down test for minorities

[nawainwright]

Diversity means hiring people who aren't white. If you had a whole office full of black, asian, latin, etc people, it would be quite diverse. You'd probably get a Federal grant and a medal for it.

Oh how right you are. I worked for a local printer who was subcontracted by a "minority" company. Several BIG clients who had federal funding needed some work done but they had to use a certain number of "minority owned" suppliers. So this guy, who's business had absolutely nothing to do with printing, put in a bid and subcontracted my former boss to do the actual printing. Dude didn't even try to pretend, he brought my former boss to the meeting and didn't say a word other than to introduce him. The company was essentially forced into paying a middle man for....nothing.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

But they're still discrimated against. How do they use the relief tubes? they probably need it 6x as often as the men.

What relief tubes? Helicopters don't have 'em; we can't fly that long.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Have you ever taken the asvab? From some of the people I saw in the Army, a foot stool could pass it.

I think you're mistaking lack of common sense for lack of intelligence. It's a common ailment nowadays.

 

[$mooth]

What relief tubes? Helicopters don't have 'em; we can't fly that long.

the H-53s and Navy H-60s do. The other helo platforms i've worked on don't (OH-58, H-1, ARH-70)

 

[Blackhawk2001]

the H-53s and Navy H-60s do. The other helo platforms i've worked on don't (OH-58, H-1, ARH-70)

Necessity is the (dare I say it?) mother of invention. There are aviation relief tube products on the market for women. Of course, those one-piece flight suits the Navy/Marine types wear probably make it tough to use 'em... NASA uses adult diapers... Of course, if I was sitting on a million pounds of explosives, I'd need a diaper, too.

 

[NordicHeathenVinlander]

The situation as disgusting as it is, is only going to get worse, as it has been trending that way for years.


Kudos to the liberals and republicans who supported this kind of crap, instead of standing up for what is right.

 

[rambone]

Privatize them.

 

[hornadylnl]

I think you're mistaking lack of common sense for lack of intelligence. It's a common ailment nowadays.

I had a 123 GT. At the time I took it, I had no intention of joining the military so I didn't really rack my brain when I took it. Our school made all juniors take it. I don't consider myself a rocket scientist by any stretch of the imagination. I think the minimum score to get in was in the 30's. It was so easy even a caveman could do it.

 

[beararms1776]

That's just great! Don't let your kids here about this, they won't want to finish school.

 

[Loco179]

A somewhat nasty comment from me: I've had a bit of experience with NYC firefighters and IMO, if they let them get much dumber, on average, they'll forget to breathe. Case in point. They apparently have an institutional distain for SCBAs or respirators. They don't like to use them at fires and they pretty much refused to use them during search and rescue operations at WTC after 9/11. As a result, they have a lot of folks with respiratory problems today. Too dumb to survive, in my view.

What a freaking stupid statement. Seriously. At 911 there was a total lack of support trucks surviving. You know some type of truck that refills the compressed air on your back. They were buried under rubble. Also most of their special rescue company's were dead so the guys with the knowledge in the rescue end were dead. So now they had nothing to support them, Radio's that DO NOT WORK ( Indy uses this system and its horrible ), the extra support trucks cannot get to them, no water to fight the fire ( fire boats had to be used), and command is gone.

Oh the Federal Teams take 24 hours to get to you.

You have your friends that you spend every day off with buried under two buildings. You now have none of your heavy equipment because its buried. These guys tried to get as many people out of there before they came down.

Show some respect.

 

[MinuteMan47]

What a freaking stupid statement. Seriously. At 911 there was a total lack of support trucks surviving. You know some type of truck that refills the compressed air on your back. They were buried under rubble. Also most of their special rescue company's were dead so the guys with the knowledge in the rescue end were dead. So now they had nothing to support them, Radio's that DO NOT WORK ( Indy uses this system and its horrible ), the extra support trucks cannot get to them, no water to fight the fire ( fire boats had to be used), and command is gone.

Oh the Federal Teams take 24 hours to get to you.

You have your friends that you spend every day off with buried under two buildings. You now have none of your heavy equipment because its buried. These guys tried to get as many people out of there before they came down.

Show some respect.

Double standard...?

 

[Pilot]

Yeah well, programs like the No Child Left Behind program setup the dumbing of of just about everything. Someone not smart enough? Make it easier!

God.. I hope this mentality doesn't make it to the FAA. Then again, seeing some of the entry level regional airline pilots fly, I kinda wonder if it already has!

 

[Benny]

Have you ever taken the asvab? From some of the people I saw in the Army, a foot stool could pass it.

thats not being very fair to the foot stool.

Funny, but that wasn't really my point.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

What a freaking stupid statement. Seriously. At 911 there was a total lack of support trucks surviving. You know some type of truck that refills the compressed air on your back. They were buried under rubble. Also most of their special rescue company's were dead so the guys with the knowledge in the rescue end were dead. So now they had nothing to support them, Radio's that DO NOT WORK ( Indy uses this system and its horrible ), the extra support trucks cannot get to them, no water to fight the fire ( fire boats had to be used), and command is gone.

Oh the Federal Teams take 24 hours to get to you.

You have your friends that you spend every day off with buried under two buildings. You now have none of your heavy equipment because its buried. These guys tried to get as many people out of there before they came down.

Show some respect.

I had acquaintances on NY-TF1, folks I'd trained with and deployed with, so I'm well aware of who among FDNY firefighters were the first to go. That being said, I saw IN-TF1 off on that deployment and debriefed the Search Team when they came back. Long after the support infrastructure was in place FDNY firefighters refused to wear respirators and now they're suffering from their intransigence. As far as I'm aware, none of our team suffered any respiratory effects because we DID wear respirators. All glory to the public safety personnel and others who died trying to save what they could, but the post-collapse FDNY firefighters acted stupidly and to their own detriment.

Yeah, I could have gone without my "too stupid to live" remark, but it's an issue that rankles me.

 

[IndyMonkey]

I had a 123 GT. At the time I took it, I had no intention of joining the military so I didn't really rack my brain when I took it. Our school made all juniors take it. I don't consider myself a rocket scientist by any stretch of the imagination. I think the minimum score to get in was in the 30's. It was so easy even a caveman could do it.

When I took it there were several people who were trying to pass it on the second and third time.

 

[hornadylnl]

When I took it there were several people who were trying to pass it on the second and third time.

IIRC, the highest minimum GT score required for any MOS was 110. We had a guy who wanted to go SF. He had to get a 110 or higher. He was 1 step above rolling his poo into little balls. I don't know how many times he took it.

 

[chraland51]

On my son's fire department is a minority member that sued his way into becoming an officer. That guy could not pass their test so he used some argument about there not being enough minority officers in the department and something about the test being written for middle class white males. I do not remember if he even had taken all of the required classes to prepare him to be an officer. Since winning his suit, he is virtually untouchable and really does only as he pleases and gets away with it.

Quotas and affirmative action is a pile of crap, particularly in situations where only the best and brightest should be promoted. It is not that important to me as to who should cut my grass or paint my house or even clean my toilets. It is very important to me that the best man possible chase down the bad guys or put out the fire in my house where a strategy is required and thought has to be put into the effort. I do not care if that person is red, yellow, black, brown or white, but I do want only the most qualified and capable leading such efforts. I am not a racist or a sexist. Over the years, I have hired many minority group members and females to work with and for me. I picked them because of their qualifications and not the color or their skin or their plumbing. I have had to adapt to this since my first choice would be to hire a middle aged white guy who likes to shoot guns, fly fish and drink beer. Unfortunately, not many applications have come across my desk with those qualifications in combination with that particular applicant being at the top of the list.

 

[Expat]

These affirmative action programs are not fair to anyone. But I think it is going to get worse before it gets better. I am reminded of the video clip Beck shows of an older black gentleman talking about reparations not even being enough because white people have a lot to make up for.

One of the attorneys I work with told me a few years back that they may need to do something about the State's bar exam. He said that the minorities were helped into college, helped through college, helped into law school, helped through law school all by affirmative action plans, but then they couldn't pass the bar exam. I don't know if the situation was ever changed.

 

[henktermaat]

The irony of this is amazing.

Grammar nazis are annoying, dude.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Not to beat this peripheral subject to death, but since the OP touched a nerve with me, I'll add what I hope will be my last comments on this subject. I was a member of the Marion County Urban Search & Rescue Task Force (IN-TF1) for 10 years, from its inception until I left my employment with the Marion County Emergency Management Agency in 2002. I held a number of positions during that time; the last one I held was Search Team Manager, responsible for training the Technical Search Specialists and, on deployment, responsible for managing search resources for my shift. I did not deploy with the 9/11 response because my other EM counterpart was away and I couldn't be released to deploy with the Task Force. The information I'm putting out here is the result of talking to my fellow TF members, a semi-official debriefing of the Search Team members who deployed, and talking to members of our TF who served on the Incident Support Team, the folks who provided coordination with the FDNY staff, developed the TF assignment orders, and coordinated physical resource requests (including provision of respirators).

Which begs the question, how familiar are you with operations that day?



That would be a cascade system.



Truck Companies are specially equipped and trained for rescue as well.



There was an entire city department, along with mutual aid to support FDNY, in any manner required.

To be fair, many of the City's Collapse Structure Rescue experts were on the scene and were lost as well as the FDNY Incident Commander, Ray Downey, who was considered one of the foremost Urban Search & Rescue experts in the country. That said, there are a LOT of resources available for Collapsed Structure Rescue within the City.

Low band fireground frequencies were operational.

However, the politicians were aware for years of such communications problems. They chose to ignore the information.

Steps had been taken to mitigate the communications problems, which were huge, but it's difficult to catch every detail. Under the set of assumptions obtaining prior to the incident, the area around the World Trade Center was considered safe enough, with enough redundant facilities, that the City's Emergency Management Communications Center was located in one of the buildings of the complex. When the buildings came down, all power and backups were lost.

In a collapse of that scale, nothing but heavy equipment and shoe leather is able to penetrate the fireground.



That fire was beyond suppression activities.



The ICS has been in place for more years than I've been alive.

Again, to be fair, ICS is designed as a command system to rapidly scale up or down a response to an incident, without adding so many resources under the direct supervision of any one Commander as to overwhelm his ability to utilze them officially. The loss of the Command Team in the main lobby of one of the Towers did throw the remaining response into disarray, notwithstanding the attendant communications failures. None of this had anything to do with subsequent exposures to respiratory hazards.

Never, never, never count on the feds to save the day. Never, never, never count on the feds to have solutions to local problems.

Considering the amount of work it takes to officially activate and deploy an Urban Search And Rescue Task Force, FEMA and the TFs did very well getting resources moving and into both the World Trade Center site and the Pentagon. The proximity of the two most experienced East Coast Division teams to the Pentagon meant that other teams had to be dispatched from farther away. I don't remember for certain, but I believe the FEMA Incident Support Team was on-scene (at the WTC) within 12 hours and the first US&R TF was on the scene shortly thereafter. IIRC, IN-TF1 was on the road to NYC within 6 hours from activation (they have 12 hours). The TFs obviously didn't "save the day", but they did provide valuable trained resources to assist with search, rescue, and unfortunately as at the OKC Bombing, recovery operations in a hazardous environment. Although they were unable to save many lives, the FEMA US&R Task Forces performed as they were formed to do.

Not to minimalize the statement, but one of the many risks associated with the profession, is that you risk losing them to the job.

Again, an entire city of heavy equipment and mutual aid is available.



Such occurs every day, around the world.

As others have said, FDNY is not the only big city department that routinely distains the use of supplied air or filtered air breathing apparatus. I will even grant that, driven by grief and anxiety, many FDNY firefighters didn't want to take time to fit and wear respirators. Nevertheless, their seeming-institutional dislike of using breathing apparatus, combined with whatever emotions pertained at the time, led directly to their current respiritory ailment problems and it's hard to have sympathy for them when members of the TFs, who USED respirators, are having no such problems. Their decision - their fault.

The respect was given. He made an objective statement, with a subjective observation. It was coarse, but accurate.

My comments in blue above.