Nickel boron BCGs - hype, or worth it?

[Txlur]

Cool. I also work in that industry. I have a couple older Nitons in a drawer at work. All I am saying is chemical makeup is not the only factor in the quality of a material. Also, depending on the device and specific alloy library, there are limitations to what an XRF analyzer can tell you about the chemistry.

So PMI may tell you the material is right, but it could still be a crap bolt. That's all I'm saying.

Yeah, that's a big 10-4, but it's the first step in the process. All I'm trying to say is that if you prefer phosphate, buy from a respected company. If you want nitride or nib, buy from a respected company. If they coat a turd, it's a polished turd, literally.

And yes, collecting accurate PMI is horrid.

 

[Colts]

Well, your comparison to Stellite isn't accurate in terms of Nickle Boron.

Stellite is a material, not a coating or surface treatment, specifically designed for resistance to wear and corrosion, and offers little in terms of improving lubricity and metal/metal contact outside of wear resistance. Would think the MAIN issue with using this material in ARs would be wear on other parts, such as the barrel extension lugs, plus cost of machining. S-7, 9310, C158 all work just fine for bolt heads, 8620 for carriers is fine as well. A company I worked for momentarily considered Stellite for a product (unfortunately, not at liberty to divulge it's purpose) and found it's cost to be prohibitive for small units and it's benefits not worth the price compared to other materials. That being said, if I wanted it for an MG barrel or lugs on some crazy high end oil equipment/ball bearings, you got it!

Nickel Boron is a surface treatment that adds lubricity by screwing with the surface topography of the material and is applied aftermarket, offering little to no hardening properties.

Apples to oranges, but not too far off cam.

Stellite developed by Indiana's Elwood Haynes in Kokomo; originally to improve the oxidation/corrosion resistance of spark plug tips. This invention was close in timing with stainless steel (the Elwood Haynes Museum in Kokomo has a set of cutlery, prior to stainless, he made for his wife and the Indy 500 museum has a car he built/designed). The Stellite family of alloys are Co-based with Cr, W, Si, Mn and C added for enhanced properties (a.ka. Stellite 1, 6, 12 & 25). It can be made in solid (bulk parts) or powder form (for surface treatments or coatings made by high temperature processes). Stellite is used both as solid parts and coatings to offer improved properties in many Industries including Energy. As mentioned, it was designed for oxidation and corrosion resistance but happens to offer improved wear resistance (not as wear resistant as sintered carbide, but causing less wear against mating surfaces than carbide). Stellite alloys have chromia scale that provides the corrosion resistance and would have similar friction as Cr-plated parts metal/metal contact (Stellite 21 includes Mo and may have Mo oxides phases that can provide lubricity). The future will include metal printed parts made with Stellite and other advanced materials. http://blog.solidconcepts.com/industry-highlights/worlds-first-3d-printed-metal-gun/

Nickel boron or boride comes in many chemistries such as NiB, Ni2B, Ni3B and others. In the plating process chemicals are mixed and great effort is needed to create, form and maintain the correct composition for the properties required. It is hard, but it is nodular and brittle (it is weaker between the nodules). The microstructure limits the corrosion resistance (like cracks in Cr-plate) and if steel is the substrate you will want a Ni strike plating beneath the NiB. The treatment adds lubricity but it is part surface structure (like riding on the tops of ball bearings) and part chemistry (likely the borides forms B2O3 on the surface which is slick).


OK, a good start - I wonder how many have already signed off (I think there are few more statements to enhance in this thread?).

 

[Colts]

I think Stellite is a nickel-boron or chromium-boron or chromium-cobalt (or whatever depending on specific grade) material that is sometimes applied as a coating by thermal spray. I think Nickel-boron is a material applied to the substrate by electroless plating (based on a quick google search). It is also a material and deposits a coating of nickel-boron on the substrate. It is the hard and smooth properties of the nickel that give it low friction. Maybe the material is not as analagous to stellite as I thought, but it does appear to be a coating.

See prior post with regards to Stellite compositions (CoCrWMnSiC) vs NiB. Ni is relatively soft and by itself not that low of friction (it galls and can generate metal transfer in metal/metal contact. The materials are very different, but you might find each used to enhance wear resistance.

 

[Colts]

I run lubricant on Nickel Boron as well as Phosphate. That really isn't the issue. All weapons require lube. Nickel Boron requires less, and can run without any in an emergency. Not much different than running a roller cam and tappets in a V-8. You still have to use motor oil. However the coefficient of friction is less, no matter how you look at it. Less friction in any moving metal machinery is a good thing.

I concur

 

[Colts]

i work in the NDE/NDT field. I'm pretty sure I can get an accurate breakdown of any metal as long as I can remove the coating properly. I'm absolutely sure that one coated bolt (came with my fake Colt carrier) was lighter, and looked to have a different finished appearance (after cycling/coating immediately rubbed off).

Innovex/niiton PMI gun, I work in the petrochemical/power generation industries. I'm not talking about the coating, which may be BS on my Folt carrier, I'm talking about the strength and metallurgy of the bolt underneath.

OK guys, portable X-ray fluorescence spectrometers work on identifying/verifing an alloy based on the devices internal library (more a yes or no for known alloys, not so good for determining an accurate analysis for each element). A $500,000 standup XRF is good for this, but you need calibration curves built with NIST standards, etc.

 

[Colts]

Assuming you mean XRF... Then you'll have an idea of chemistry but it wont tell you anything about the coating process, bond/adhession, grain structure, or that hardening, heat treating, or coating processes were followed.

Also, it takes a fairly high-end analyzer to differentiate between most carbon steels, including hardened tool steels like a bolt might be made from.

I concur; with materials it is the processing (e.g. time at temperature, etc.) which determines the phases and morphology which determines the properties (fit for use). For a complex material, the elemental analysis does not predict much by itself, especially when discussing coatings (bond strength, stresses, wear, corrosion, thermal properties, etc.).

 

[Jackson]

Stellite developed by Indiana's Elwood Haynes in Kokomo; originally to improve the oxidation/corrosion resistance of spark plug tips. This invention was close in timing with stainless steel (the Elwood Haynes Museum in Kokomo has a set of cutlery, prior to stainless, he made for his wife and the Indy 500 museum has a car he built/designed). The Stellite family of alloys are Co-based with Cr, W, Si, Mn and C added for enhanced properties (a.ka. Stellite 1, 6, 12 & 25). It can be made in solid (bulk parts) or powder form (for surface treatments or coatings made by high temperature processes). Stellite is used both as solid parts and coatings to offer improved properties in many Industries including Energy. As mentioned, it was designed for oxidation and corrosion resistance but happens to offer improved wear resistance (not as wear resistant as sintered carbide, but causing less wear against mating surfaces than carbide). Stellite alloys have chromia scale that provides the corrosion resistance and would have similar friction as Cr-plated parts metal/metal contact (Stellite 21 includes Mo and may have Mo oxides phases that can provide lubricity). The future will include metal printed parts made with Stellite and other advanced materials.

Nickel boron or boride comes in many chemistries such as NiB, Ni2B, Ni3B and others. In the plating process chemicals are mixed and great effort is needed to create, form and maintain the correct composition for the properties required. It is hard, but it is nodular and brittle (it is weaker between the nodules). The microstructure limits the corrosion resistance (like cracks in Cr-plate) and if steel is the substrate you will want a Ni strike plating beneath the NiB. The treatment adds lubricity but it is part surface structure (like riding on the tops of ball bearings) and part chemistry (likely the borides forms B2O3 on the surface which is slick).


OK, a good start - I wonder how many have already signed off (I think there are few more statements to enhance in this thread?).

Metallurgist? Materials engineer? Most people get lost at grain structure. Will you be posting micrographs?

 

[Colts]

Just as we should expect from an INGO thread... Almost no discusssion on the technical/metallurgical aspects of the coating or the application process, and minimal experiences with its use. We make up for it with plenty of discussion about military issue equipment circa 1986. That should suffice to answer the OP's question. :-)

OK, if you made it this far I hope you are not mad - I am just making a point that the metallurgical aspects of coatings, processes, etc. may not be very exciting and it is likely more fun to discuss guns, ammo and even knives (now this is where metallurgy is important). Only one more reply to make it full circle, hang on (if you are still out there).

 

[Colts]

The End

Potentially worth it . . .

NiB is used on "greaseless guns" but I would still use grease!

I have seen hype in some of the marketing from the chemical manufacturers . . .

For $10 difference, I might try (but would not expect it to be fully corrosion resistant).

Can you reply to your own quote?

A few days ago, I decided to reply short and sweet (but somehow I just could not leave it at that see proceeding replys).

I prefer Alchemist to metallurgist or materials scientist and I draw the line at metallographs (that would be too much like work).

 

[Jackson]

OK, if you made it this far I hope you are not mad - I am just making a point that the metallurgical aspects of coatings, processes, etc. may not be very exciting and it is likely more fun to discuss guns, ammo and even knives (now this is where metallurgy is important). Only one more reply to make it full circle, hang on (if you are still out there).

Why would I be mad? Seems like you're posting good info.

 

[Jackson]

My knowledge of metallurgy and materials analysis is inspector/QA level. I rely on guys like you to do the real analysis. :-)

 

[Colts]

My knowledge of metallurgy and materials analysis is inspector/QA level. I rely on guys like you to do the real analysis. :-)

Cool; we guess like anyone else, just the expensive toys to provide something that supports our guess?

 

[Txlur]

OK guys, portable X-ray fluorescence spectrometers work on identifying/verifing an alloy based on the devices internal library (more a yes or no for known alloys, not so good for determining an accurate analysis for each element). A $500,000 standup XRF is good for this, but you need calibration curves built with NIST standards, etc.

And also provides an element by element breakdown per piece, and if the internal library reads that as 'unknown' because the %(plus or minus x%) does not match the internal library, one can take those numbers to any host of databases and figure out what the material is.. Yeah. So you're wrong. Everything I've used has NIST numbers and cal caps. Mo C Ni Mn Cr Fe - all percentages, every shot.

 

[Colts]

And also provides an element by element breakdown per piece, and if the internal library reads that as 'unknown' because the %(plus or minus x%) does not match the internal library, one can take those numbers to any host of databases and figure out what the material is.. Yeah. So you're wrong. Everything I've used has NIST numbers and cal caps. Mo C Ni Mn Cr Fe - all percentages, every shot.

No doubt it provides elemental analysis (qualitative), I just doubt it is quantitative (semi-quantitative at best). Do you know which crystals your device contains, that will determine which elements you can identity and how accurate. Even $1,000,000 XRFs work best when you evaluate elements like S, C, N, O and H (low atomic weights with little associated energy from escaping electrons) by LECO type devices and then import this into the algorithem used to estimate what weight percent correlates to the intensity measured.

The NIST standards are only a starting place and are dependent upon the surface roughness, thickness and phases present; calibration curves need to be built for the particular roughness, thickness and phases in the part (plus importing light elements separately) before you have quantitative data. The portable XRFs assume the alloy is within the specification of alloys in its database (it is much more difficult to determine if an alloy is good or not or if a steel had the proper heat treatment / case hardening steps etc. - the stuff that matters).

I am aware of many alloys and materials, some used in military applications that will not be present in any public database. If you contact your XRF manufacturer, I think they will caution you on the accuracy of the C analysis +/- 5, 10, 15 or 20% (the most critical alloying element for steel properties is generally C)?

If you use a XRF for mission critical applications, please do not put much faith in the element percentages generated (assume a wide +/-) especially for unknown alloys. Every portable XRF manufacturer I have contacted regarding quantitative analysis of unknown alloys, has passed on the opportunity to provide one (no quote).

I might be wrong (I stand by my quote), but I do not believe everything I read on the Internet (or portable XRF screens).

 

[Jackson]

Older portable XRF devices would not even take a shot at carbon content. So they could not differentiate carbon steels. In the industry in which Txlur works, I imagine he is mainly verifying the correct material was used in a given application. Things like 2 1/4 chrome vs 9 chrome aalloys, deposited weld metal was correct, or possibly high chrome duplex stainless or nickel-based alloys. The XRF analyzers I have used in thhe field differentiate those alloys almost completely based on the chrome, nickel, and moly content. It doesnt even need to know the C in the steel.

 

[Txlur]

Just don't buy your coated bolts from a guy on a street corner, you don't know where he got them, or where he had them coated. Known good manufacturer, that's my point.

 

[jh1978]

I have a Fail Zero in one of my ARs and it really is much easier to clean than a phosphate. You still gotta put a little elbow grease if you want them to stay shiny, even with FireClean. It came with the coated hammer too, but took that out as soon as i got a 2 stage trigger. I don't really think the hammer needs the coating anyway.

 

[MikeDVB]

I paid way too much for mine but I do prefer it over the one I had that wasn't. As others have said - much easier to clean.

 

[Jeremy1066]

Now that this thread came back up, I'm wondering, is it possible that the "slipperiness" of a NiB BCG would defeat the lubricating properties of oil, and therefore rely only on the NiB for lubrication? Some have stated how oil "beads up" on NiB coated parts, so if it doesn't stick, where does it go? I've never used a NiB BCG, so I have no experience to draw from.

 

[wsenefeld]

Now that this thread came back up, I'm wondering, is it possible that the "slipperiness" of a NiB BCG would defeat the lubricating properties of oil, and therefore rely only on the NiB for lubrication? Some have stated how oil "beads up" on NiB coated parts, so if it doesn't stick, where does it go? I've never used a NiB BCG, so I have no experience to draw from.

I've never noticed any beading. I apply M-Pro7 lube to my nickel boron bcg's the same as I would if it were phosphate. I shoot suppressed so the ability to easily clean my bcg is a must. I have 2 from WMD and 2 from Ice Arms. I know both companies properly go about the nickel boron process. I was tempted to purchase one from PSA but they ignored multiple requests on their industry page as to how they go about the process. That didn't give me any reassurance so I paid more and bought from WMD.