OC Creeper!

[HoughMade]

Wonder if he was so jumpy and nervous because that was his first time OCing

-1

He clearly said "Panda Express" not "Walmart"

We all know that first time carrying and OC experiences involve walking around Walmart.

 

[foszoe]

Most criminal acts do not start out as an attack, they start out as a demand. Give me your money. Get in the car. Open the safe. That's when the element of surprise can make all the difference between win or loss.

This struck me as worth repeating. It would seem to say, if I read it right, surprise is a card in the game that is best played early. Most commands often necessitate movement on the part of the victim and an ability to disguise that movement along with using it as a distraction may allow a best chance at surprise presentation of a self defense firearm.

Conjecture further and perhaps the second best time, if one chooses not to act initially, might be when the criminal is interacting with wallet, cash, car keys freshly handed over etc.

 

[chipbennett]

If you count security guards as bystanders, it happens.

Security Guard Fatally Shot During Gun Battle Inside San Bernardino Marijuana Dispensary | KTLA

Or

[video=youtube;OKn1esoxQ0c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKn1esoxQ0c[/video]

I don't know anything about the providence of this video, but if its a fake its pretty convincing.

Given the relative rarity of both OC among non-security/LE carriers and the relative rarity of business robberies while any given person is there, I think you'll find that the two are simply not occurring at the same time very often. Uniformed security being shot or otherwise neutralized is also rare, but does occur. Armed security does, of course, also offer a deterrent effect. It simply depends on how dedicated the criminals are, and thus my warning to not rely on the talisman effect of the gun.

Most criminal acts do not start out as an attack, they start out as a demand. Give me your money. Get in the car. Open the safe. That's when the element of surprise can make all the difference between win or loss.

Again, I don't care what you do or how you carry. Just have a realistic understanding of the pros and cons based on actual events.

I would count armed security guards as essentially the same as armed LEO, in the context of an armed robbery. And, as noted in the survey I linked above: criminals fear armed citizens (would-be victims) more than police. But more than that, the calculus is different between armed LEO/security guard vs. armed bystander.

Generally I would agree, but not in the specific case of Tsarnaev, as the stated motive was to get an additional firearm for the brother who did not have one. They didn't target him because of his uniform like the folks who put the Gadsden flag on the cops they killed, they targeted him because they knew he had a gun and they wanted that gun.

Sure, but again: that was a terrorist attack, and not simple crime. All the rules change when you're talking about a terrorist attack, because the objective is completely different.

 

[nakinate]

Most criminal acts do not start out as an attack, they start out as a demand. Give me your money. Get in the car. Open the safe. That's when the element of surprise can make all the difference between win or loss.

Again, I don't care what you do or how you carry. Just have a realistic understanding of the pros and cons based on actual events.

Interesting. I don't mind OC and have OCd plenty in the past. But a lot of pro-OC people tend to downplay the "element of surprise" angle of CC. This is why I like INGO. You get info/opinions from people with a lot of real world experience.

 

[eldirector]

In all of the above, you are still playing THEIR game. Just hoping you hold a higher trump card.

A hypothesis of OC is that for cases where you are NOT targeted specifically (meaning, your attacker did not seek you out by name, but chose you "at random") the presence of a visible defensive weapon may make you a less desirable target.

Kinda like druggies snatching a little old lady's purse, rather than going after the wallet in a linebacker's back pocket.

Of course, there is a whole thread devoted to this topic.

 

[nakinate]

In all of the above, you are still playing THEIR game. Just hoping you hold a higher trump card.

A hypothesis of OC is that for cases where you are NOT targeted specifically (meaning, your attacker did not seek you out by name, but chose you "at random") the presence of a visible defensive weapon may make you a less desirable target.

Kinda like druggies snatching a little old lady's purse, rather than going after the wallet in a linebacker's back pocket.

Of course, there is a whole thread devoted to this topic.

I think we can all agree that regardless of if or how you carry that situational awareness and staying away from the wrong places will go a long way in avoiding most situations like this.

 

[gjclark]

Lots of great replies here, and I loved the spoof thread, but could not get in a reply before it was locked! LOL! It was great, and extremely well done!

We don't know what was going on inside of this guy's head, and yes, it could have been his first time with an OC, or it could have been anything. I just know that my hackles went up, and it was time to vacate the premises, just in case. Someone said something about my "spidy sense", and I think that is the best description of all. I am sure it was nothing, but this guy looked like he was strung out and jonesing for something, and I didn't want to get in between him and his need, whatever it was. This guy would have creeped me out even if he wasn't carrying.

I tend to be pretty tolerant of most people, and I spend a lot of time in downtown Indy where you can see all kinds of crazy-looking people! I don't consider myself snobbish in any way, and honestly get along with just about anybody from any background. I volunteer once a week in a food pantry, and you can see some crazy things there as well. Most of the time, they just need some loving and to know that someone cares about them. I stop and talk with people that are obviously homeless, and it is amazing how much they appreciate just being noticed, much less that someone would bother to stop and talk to them. I just wanted to throw that in in case someone might thing that I am just a snob. This guy in Panda Express was just plain dangerous. There is no other way to describe him that would translate well in a forum posting.

I am glad you enjoyed it. Wasn't intended to belittle your feelings because I totally understand and as others have mentioned you absolutely have to trust your gut. I would have done the same thing to protect me and my loved ones... although I would have gotten a to-go box first.

 

[eldirector]

I think we can all agree that regardless of if or how you carry that situational awareness and staying away from the wrong places will go a long way in avoiding most situations like this.

SA and staying in the "right" place didn't keep us out of this thread!

 

[Dirtebiker]

Let's face it - not everyone that has a license to carry should. I have never been a fan of open carry because it lacks the element of surprise. People are automatically alarmed and alert by the site of it. If he had come to rob the place, you would be the first person he dealt with because of your exposed firearm. Never have understood why someone would want to stand out like this. I always carry my sig p938 - nobody even knows I have it in my pocket holster. The crook would never see it coming.

 

[Mark 1911]

Had to check your location. Last Panda Express I OC'd at was in Highland. And I didn't notice anyone get up and leave!

 

[gregkl]

OC "tolerance" does not equate to ignoring other danger signs. Thugs, drunks, and a-holes can open carry just as easily as anyone else, and they do, despite what you may hear on gun forums. You looked at the totality of the circumstances, you detected a possible threat, and you acted on it. That's a win.

Your limbic brain is a finely tuned threat detection device. Listen to it. I hear so many people start off their statements after getting robbed with "I felt something wasn't right, but..." and then they explain their instinct away. Then they get victimized.

This is me. If something doesn't feel right, I stop, leave, quit eating it and do whatever it takes to make things feel right again. I have learned sometimes the hard way. I contracted food poisoning 4 times and each time as I was eating the food, it didn't taste and/or look right to me. Now I pass if I suspect anything.

 

[Doublehelix]

I am glad you enjoyed it. Wasn't intended to belittle your feelings because I totally understand and as others have mentioned you absolutely have to trust your gut. I would have done the same thing to protect me and my loved ones... although I would have gotten a to-go box first.

You didn't belittle my feelings at all... I thought it was hilarious! I pretty much spewed my coffee all over my computer screen from laughing so hard this morning when I read it! You are indeed a master, sir!

 

[tbhausen]

Most criminal acts do not start out as an attack, they start out as a demand. Give me your money. Get in the car. Open the safe. That's when the element of surprise can make all the difference between win or loss.

This is one that I've always found a bit unclear... What if the command is given with no weapon visible? Even kind of nicely? Where do you make the transition from compliance (the old Massad Ayoob "$20 bill wrapped around a matchbook" trick) to pulling a gun? Then you don't shoot until he goes for his, rather than shooting an unarmed person because he/she told you to do something? I'd rather find a way out without even pulling my gun, but waiting to see how it's going to play out is a dangerous game. Is there any good teaching resource for nuances like this, where an encounter could go so many different directions?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

This is one that I've always found a bit unclear... What if the command is given with no weapon visible? Even kind of nicely? Where do you make the transition from compliance (the old Massad Ayoob "$20 bill wrapped around a matchbook" trick) to pulling a gun? Then you don't shoot until he goes for his, rather than shooting an unarmed person because he/she told you to do something? I'd rather find a way out without even pulling my gun, but waiting to see how it's going to play out is a dangerous game. Is there any good teaching resource for nuances like this, where an encounter could go so many different directions?

Well, I know a guy who teaches a class based on real cases....

 

[Cygnus]

You shoulda yelled "He's got a gun!" and threw your wife to the floor while you lay on her to protect her.....I mean if you were in a Best Buy that would be obligitory.


OTOH maybe he was just nervous.......

 

[Bill of Rights]

I thought the correct response was to have a trauma plate duct-taped to your body, front and back, to withstand multiple .308 hits?

You shoulda yelled "He's got a gun!" and threw your wife to the floor while you lay on her to protect her.....I mean if you were in a Best Buy that would be obligitory.


OTOH maybe he was just nervous.......

 

[Bigtanker]

Well, I know a guy who teaches a class based on real cases....

Me too. I even signed up for one in October.

 

[tbhausen]

Well, I know a guy who teaches a class based on real cases....

Cbhausen and I definitely have plans for more training in the immediate future.

 

[Cygnus]

I thought the correct response was to have a trauma plate duct-taped to your body, front and back, to withstand multiple .308 hits?

That is only for Malll Nijas!

I was referring to a thread by an INGOer who had someone do what I described when he walked into a Best Buy. The staff all knew the INGOer and laughed at the guy and his wife who left all PO'd.

 

[singlemalt]

He was probably just scared his Glock was going to explode.

I'd hears they are dangerous, going off by themselves and such. Exploding tho, that is a new one for me.