Ruffled Feathers

[chezuki]

Fun fact: I completed a firearm trade in the Rural King parking lot today.... and neither gun was in a case!




I'll wait patiently for the helicopters.

 

[rhino]

I understand that the ATF person you talked to might have a certain opinion, but if they cannot cite a statute/rule/regulation, then it is just an opinion.

Since this isn't an OTC transaction, they must only be talking about part II. For that, 27 CFR 478.124(f) does not address property lines, premises, or anything like that (as I recall). "Business premises" is defined in the definition section, but apparently not used in the 4473 related part. The regulations all seem to assume the dealer is a party to the transaction.

Store rules can be store rules, but this does not appear to be supported by laws or regulations.

Completion of a 4473 is a federal requirement of transferring inventory from an FFL holder to another person/entity. If the FFL holder is not involved in the transaction, and is not acting as a 3rd. party broker to the deal I see no reason to get your panties in a wad because the 4473 is not required in a private party exchange. Having said that, "your lot your rules", if you do not want that occurring in your lot maybe you should post it.

Regardless of etiquette, I think we can agree that claiming it's illegal when it's not, is poor form.

The exception here is that the LGS owner was given bad advice by someone that should know better.

ETA:
In future maybe you should say, "Hey, I'd prefer you not do FTF deals in our parking lot - some ATF agent might see this and give us some grief." I'd understand, and respect that.

Indeed! Those regulations apply to the FLL holder. Neither of the people in the parking lot were (as far as we know) FFL holders and are not bound by those regulations.

Fun fact: I completed a firearm trade in the Rural King parking lot today.... and neither gun was in a case!




I'll wait patiently for the helicopters.

UH-oh!

 

[Gluemanz28]

OMG there is a lot of chasing rabbits in this thread.
So if a sign is posted then it means the owner could be liable because he knew something was going on.
Does that also mean that a no unholstered loaded weapons sign make the business liable if someone gets shot in their store?

That logic is the same as allowing a trade in a Police lot and then getting sued because the guy that got the gun shot someone.

If someone is parked in front of my house I'm not going out to confront them. I'm going to stay inside and guard my castle under the protection of the four walls while taking prepared defensive actions. Nothing outside my house, while me and my family are safely inside is worth risking my life or taking a life.

If OP wants to get drawn outside his four walls to check on what's going on in his parking lot then that's his choice.

 

[JettaKnight]

Indeed! Those regulations apply to the FLL holder. Neither of the people in the parking lot were (as far as we know) FFL holders and are not bound by those regulations.


UH-oh!

 

[DanVoils]

To me they are exempt because most of those stores are either attached to a mall parking area, or other large stores such as Wal-Mart. Just less personal than a small shop with its own parking lot.
I have done one or two deals in the Gander Mtn. parking lot in Greenwood, which is right next door to a Wal-Mart. I really don't do as many firearm deals as I do smaller stuff like ammo, accessories etc.

What about the Wal-mart's FFL? Don't they also sell firearms, ammo, accessories etc.?
Dan

 

[KG1]

Fun fact: I completed a firearm trade in the Rural King parking lot today.... and neither gun was in a case!




I'll wait patiently for the helicopters.

Delete your post and contact a lawyer, ASAP!!!

 

[db1959]

Fun fact: I completed a firearm trade in the Rural King parking lot today.... and neither gun was in a case!




I'll wait patiently for the helicopters.

Reported

 

[Trigger Time]

?????
He did call and they gave him a answer and yet the internet experts still disagree with what he was told.

He talked to the wrong person. That's the point. You can read online about sooo many different people calling about the same issue and getting different answers from the atf phone researchers.
The examiners that actualy come to the shops are the ones that need to be asked. That was my point. No one here is talking out their ass except the people who have never dealt with the ATF professionally.

 

[Trigger Time]

OMG there is a lot of chasing rabbits in this thread.
So if a sign is posted then it means the owner could be liable because he knew something was going on.
Does that also mean that a no unholstered loaded weapons sign make the business liable if someone gets shot in their store?

That logic is the same as allowing a trade in a Police lot and then getting sued because the guy that got the gun shot someone.

If someone is parked in front of my house I'm not going out to confront them. I'm going to stay inside and guard my castle under the protection of the four walls while taking prepared defensive actions. Nothing outside my house, while me and my family are safely inside is worth risking my life or taking a life.

If OP wants to get drawn outside his four walls to check on what's going on in his parking lot then that's his choice.

^^ smart guy! Me too gluemanz

 

[PGRChaplain]

I thought Albertsons had a going out of business Auction awhile back. I for one try to Buy from the Local Gun Store. Maybe explaining the FFL holder thought he was in Jeopardy and asking the prospective Customers to move next door to do the Transaction would have worked better.

 

[Vendetta]

Personally, I don't make much of a show out of a private sale. I'm discreet and quick with the deal. We might talk for an hour afterword, but the deal is quiet.

I'll be dealing with another vetted INGOer that has given me all the info I need on what I'm getting. No swinging muzzles around. I'll look closer when I'm home, but there has never been a need to follow up further.

In a big parking lot, you're not readily going to know what kind of a transaction or if a transaction has actually happened.

This. Exactly this. Stand and talk for 20-30 minutes after the deal but nobody around knew a firearm or firearms were exchanged. Doesnt matter where you are.

I also can understand the etiquette part of this thread, however I agree with the post that said likely customers were scared off. If I happen to making a deal in the area of a gun shop I make it a point to stop in. Especially if I have a new wad of cash in my pocket.

 

[medcoxo]

There's a Bourbon Indiana?

this was especially funny, since I read it in a Zapp Brannigan voice.. I think I will be laughing like a little school girl for the rest of the night...

 

[Albertson's]

Wow, opened up one hell of a big can of worms didn't I? Not my intention, nor was it our intention to run anybody off. Thank you to all for your thoughts and comments.

We did have a large auction, last fall, and are doing so again on March 11th. This is an open consignment auction, we plan on having them a couple of times each year, kind of bringing the gun show to our shop. I will post more details soon, probably ought do it in another thread though? Might have to pay up to be an advertiser, not just a contributor as we are now...

 

[mcapo]

I can't imagine meeting AT an FFL to do a NON-FFL transaction. Nor would I sell my used Ford to a private party using my local Chevy dealer's lot as a meet and inspect location...

Don't expect a licensed FFL (knowingly or unknowingly) to act in any grey area of the BATF laws and don't put them in a position to question their actions or lack thereof.

Just remember that the assault on the 2nd Amendment is not over with a Trump election. The anti-gun crowd is alive and will be fundraising with each and every regulatory roll back and gun blaming headline. Let's not give them any reason to require a 4473 on EVERY transfer ANYPLACE.

 

[Gluemanz28]

I can't imagine meeting AT an FFL to do a NON-FFL transaction. Nor would I sell my used Ford to a private party using my local Chevy dealer's lot as a meet and inspect location...

When a business is open to the public, the public tend to use the business parking lot for personal use sometimes. What if it was a meeting place to do a kid exchange for separated parents, would that still be wrong?

Don't expect a licensed FFL (knowingly or unknowingly) to act in any grey area of the BATF laws and don't put them in a position to question their actions or lack thereof.

Albertsons has the right to set the rules for his business, although I'm not sure this thread is gaining him a lot of new customers.

Just remember that the assault on the 2nd Amendment is not over with a Trump election. The anti-gun crowd is alive and will be fundraising with each and every regulatory roll back and gun blaming headline. Let's not give them any reason to require a 4473 on EVERY transfer ANYPLACE.

I must be missing something because I'm not making the connection on how a legal transaction is jeopardizing my 2nd amendment rights.

 

[mcapo]

When a business is open to the public, the public tend to use the business parking lot for personal use sometimes. What if it was a meeting place to do a kid exchange for separated parents, would that still be wrong?


Albertsons has the right to set the rules for his business, although I'm not sure this thread is gaining him a lot of new customers.


I must be missing something because I'm not making the connection on how a legal transaction is jeopardizing my 2nd amendment rights.

I'm pretty sure the transfer of children amongst parents is not a potentially federally regulated transaction...

I would encourage you and everyone else to continue to exercise their 2nd amendment rights. As a matter of fact, I purchase more guns privately than through a dealer; so protecting that right is important. "Closing the gun show loop hole" is a major part of the anti-constitution crowd. Requiring a 4473 with ALL transactions is high on their list on objectives and they already relate private gun sales to illicit drug transactions happening in back alleys amongst criminal entities. While I am not suggesting that the original parties causing this thread had any ill intent, we must all be thoughtful of how and where we conduct our private sales. I was pulling into a Wal-Mart in Fort Wayne once and two guys where standing at their trunks - each with an rifle shouldered. While my first thought was "Cool, wonder what kind of rifles they are?"; some people would scream "SHOOTER".

I think Kirk from Albertson's has done us all a favor by bringing this subject for us to think about when completing our private sales.

 

[deo62]

I can't imagine meeting AT an FFL to do a NON-FFL transaction. Nor would I sell my used Ford to a private party using my local Chevy dealer's lot as a meet and inspect location...

This I could myself doing! (Selling a ford at a Chevy dealer)

 

[red_zr24x4]

As a matter of fact, I purchase more guns privately than through a dealer; so protecting that right is important. "Closing the gun show loop hole" is a major part of the anti-constitution crowd. Requiring a 4473 with ALL transactions is high on their list on objectives and they already relate private gun sales to illicit drug transactions happening in back alleys amongst criminal entities. While I am not suggesting that the original parties causing this thread had any ill intent, .

So doing a gun sale where guns are used to being seen is compared to illicit drug sales, so we need to go someplace else.... got it.
Having worked in Chicago, I've seen drug sales about anywhere you can think of.

As for the OP, your store , your rules. ( that's how its suppose to be) Doesn't make me any difference.

 

[Gluemanz28]

I'm pretty sure the transfer of children amongst parents is not a potentially federally regulated transaction...

I have yet to see anything posted in this thread that proves the private sell was breaking any laws. I purposely used the kid swap to prove a point. I'm inclined to believe that more has gone wrong during a kid swap than a private sell of a firearm.

I would encourage you and everyone else to continue to exercise their 2nd amendment rights. As a matter of fact, I purchase more guns privately than through a dealer; so protecting that right is important. "Closing the gun show loop hole" is a major part of the anti-constitution crowd. Requiring a 4473 with ALL transactions is high on their list on objectives and they already relate private gun sales to illicit drug transactions happening in back alleys amongst criminal entities. While I am not suggesting that the original parties causing this thread had any ill intent, we must all be thoughtful of how and where we conduct our private sales. I was pulling into a Wal-Mart in Fort Wayne once and two guys where standing at their trunks - each with an rifle shouldered. While my first thought was "Cool, wonder what kind of rifles they are?"; some people would scream "SHOOTER".

I agree with this statement

I think Kirk from Albertson's has done us all a favor by bringing this subject for us to think about when completing our private sales.

I'm not sure Kirk has done himself or many others a favor by this thread, but hey to each their own.

 

[EPeter213]

I'm not sure Kirk has done himself or many others a favor by this thread, but hey to each their own.

Sadly, Kirk was only trying to protect his livelihood from possible legal issues. He acknowledged that his actions at the time were based on an old understanding of the federal laws, and even took action to update his knowledge of the current regulations.

Good for you, Kirk. I applaud your decision, and don't think you deserve to be attacked for your actions.