super shorty

[arthrimus]

This. I didn't see anyone say a Serbu didn't need a stamp. Being AOWs, they need a $5 tax stamp to transfer. All that was being said here is that even though it fires a shotgun shell, a Serbu (or KEG) is not a "shotgun" under IN or federal law, because, since they never had a shoulder stock on them, they were never designed to be fired from the shoulder. Note that this applies to a virgin receiver or to one that came from the factory with PGO. Once it has a shoulder stock on it, it is forever thereafter a shotgun. If its barrel is less than 18" OR it's overall length is less than 26", or both, THEN you would have a SBS, which would be unlawful according to Indiana state law, however, until it has a shoulder stock, those length limits do not apply.

Think about the Taurus Judge, and others that fire shotgun shells. No way is that barrel or OAL over the lengths for SBS, but they're still legal here. No license required to buy, just to carry off your own property.

As for the Shockwave, no, I am not familiar with that, however, again: virgin receiver or PGO from factory, I would think you could build it without any headaches or special licenses as long as both barrel and OAL length requirements are met. If you're BUILDING a Serbu-style weapon (i.e. PGO with shorter barrel than SBS limits), that would require a $200 tax stamp.

In sum: Buy from a mfgr, need to clear the background check and pay $5.00 to Uncle Sam. Build it yourself, clear background check and $200.00 tax stamp.

Hope that clarifies what I was saying.

Blessings,
Bill

There still seems to be some confusion about the shockwave style gun. The ATF clarifies the issue in THIS letter that I posted earlier. Key points below.

Based on this legislative history and, in an effort to achieve consistent application of the law, ATF utilizes 26 inches as a presumptive standard to determine whether a firearm is "capable of being concealed on the person."

under NFA, barrel length is relevant only in regard to rifles and shotguns. Firearms that come equipped with a pistol grip in place of the buttstock are not "shotguns" as defined by the NFA. Therefore, in determining whether a firearm is "capable of being concealed on the person," barrel length is considered only to the extent that is constitutes a portion of the overall-length measurement of the firearm.

These two quotes are all you need to determine that the ATF does not deem a PGO, like a Mossberg 500 cruiser, that has never had a shoulder stock, a "shotgun." Therefore, you don't need to meet both the OAL and barrel length requirement. The ONLY requirement that a PGO shotgun must meet under NFA is over all length. Barrel length is irrelevant. You could have a 25" long pistol grip and receiver and a 1.5" barrel and you'd still be golden.

The Judge is legal because has a rifled barrel. If it was smooth-bore, it would be an AOW.


I see no reason why a PGO (or virgin) shotgun receiver couldn't have a rifled barrel chopped to any length and remain legal without a stamp, it would be no different than the judge. IANAL.

IANAL, but according to the ATF, since the shockwave type guns exceed the maximum overall length of for what they consider an AOW, you don't need a rifled barrel. That requirement only applies to concealable guns.

 

[ShootnCut]

I got excited about these until the ATF put the kabosh on them. In fact I was scratching my head trying to figure out how they were going to get away with it.
I figured they would fall under the DD catagory not an SBS. It was my assumption they had rifled the barrel. (For what cartridge I don't know.) If not it would indeed be an SBS. If so, being over .50 cal it would be a DD.

Big gun, Short lived. Taurus 28 Gauge Revolver. - The Firearm Blog

 

[arthrimus]

I got excited about these until the ATF put the kabosh on them. In fact I was scratching my head trying to figure out how they were going to get away with it.
I figured they would fall under the DD catagory not an SBS. It was my assumption they had rifled the barrel. (For what cartridge I don't know.) If not it would indeed be an SBS. If so, being over .50 cal it would be a DD.

Big gun, Short lived. Taurus 28 Gauge Revolver. - The Firearm Blog

Why wouldn't it be classified as an AOW?

 

[ShootnCut]

Now that you mention it if it wasn't rifled I guess it would be. If rifled, DD.

 

[Wheeler78]

Lol I forgot bout this thread glad to see it kinda really took off on a good discussion. I still think that the shockwave PGO is legal as I read it but I lack the intestinal fortitude to try it Lol.

 

[engineerpower]

Testicular fortitude, rather.

 

[Wheeler78]

Lol that too

 

[gunselman]

Wow this is still going on? I thought the info i posted previously was as easy to digest as possible. I guess not.

 

[engineerpower]

I've contacted the ISP via email to ask who I can talk with about getting something similar to a ATF Tech Branch letter. No response yet, may have to call.

I'm sure whoever answers won't have a clue, and will transfer me to whatever clerk does the LTCH...

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

I've contacted the ISP via email to ask who I can talk with about getting something similar to a ATF Tech Branch letter. No response yet, may have to call.

I'm sure whoever answers won't have a clue, and will transfer me to whatever clerk does the LTCH...

I doubt you'll get anything analogous from the ISP.

 

[engineerpower]

I doubt you'll get anything analogous from the ISP.

Any ideas who else we could ask?

 

[ShootnCut]

I was thinking about the local police departments in my jurisdiction. (city, county, etc.)
I don't know how helpful they'd be in interpreting the law but we may get a feel as to their take on the whole situation. You may get a reaction like "Hmmmm....That's interesting. We weren't aware of that." Or you may get something like "Ah hell no! We're not buying into that."
It's hard to say. The only thing that concerns me is the fact that sometimes trying to educate can come back and bite us in the butt. I remember the 80's when Firepower magazine went to great lengths showing everyone how simple it was to buy NFA items and register and convert semi-autos. And we all know how that ended up.

 

[engineerpower]

I don't think local PD's are going to do much good to us. Local units have very wide-ranging understandings and interpretations of the same exact thing, and a county sheriff may have very different stances from a town PD. An example of this is local asshats refusing the CLEO sign-offs when they're required to if there's no good cause otherwise.

We need state-wide guidance, and it seems like ISP's stance would be as close as you can get to the official word. Local units can, again, be asshats and ignore it, but a policy letter from the ISP could only help you in avoiding arrest/prosecution.

If I'm barking up the wrong tree, does anyone know a better office to get a policy statement from? Lots of nay-sayers, few suggestions...

 

[1911ly]

Here a place to go:

https://www.atf.gov/content/Contact...Columbus-Field-Division/Indiana-Field-Offices

Larry

 

[engineerpower]

Right, we have the ATF's stance, just looking for Indiana's stance now.

 

[1911ly]

That's just not just the ATF. It's the ATF in Indiana. I'd bet they are used to answering questions about Indiana's laws. Just sayin....

 

[engineerpower]

Hmm, worth a shot. Thanks

 

[1911ly]

I didn't know if you had checked the link. I posted it because it was here in Indiana. It's truly the best place to check IMHO. It would be great to figure this out!

 

[ShootnCut]

I spoke with the ATF agent in Ft Wayne I believe back in the 80's about registering an 870 with a 13" barrel. And he politely told me that you couldn't do that in Indiana. I told him I had a machine gun and he responded: "You can have a machine gun, you just can't have a short barrel shotgun."
So that may indeed be a good source of info.
The county sheriff in my area is very 2A friendly and personally answered an e-mail from my brother several months back so I'm going to contact him and try to get his opinion on this matter.

 

[ShootnCut]

I think this is a case of literal interpretation of the wording of the law. Sometimes it works against us and sometimes for us. When the semi-auto pistol version of the H&K MP5K came out with it's broomstick front grip the ATF said no because the definition of a handgun stated it was designed to be fired with "one hand". So because of this we can't put a forward grip on a Draco, semi-auto Thompson pistol, a Glock or any handgun. The same definition excludes a pistol grip 870 from shotgun status because it was never intended to be fired from the shoulder. So I say instead of debating and worrying, just embrace the fact that their words work for us this time.
Here's a side by side comparison.
Top: WP 870 AOW, 12.5" barrel, 24.5" OAL, 4 shot mag, $5.00 tax, 10-12 month wait, and all restrictions of an NFA item.
Bottom: PGO 870, 14" barrel, 26.5" OAL, 5 shot mag, no tax, 1-2 weeks to assemble, and no restrictions.
Cost??? About the same. I see WP 870s occasionally for $650.00-$800.00. The cost of the PGO and parts was around $750.00. If one was to sell the 18.5" Remchoke barrel, breacher choke tube, factory extension and clamp, and worthless Tac Star Thompson style plastic grips for $150.00-$200.00 (about $300.00 worth if you bought it all new) you could bring the cost down to $550.00-$600.00.