super shorty

[ArevaloSocom]

Shot for first time this weekend. WANT.

 

[pharmboy]

Anyone checked out this rig from Andrews? It strikes me as rather impractical, but incredibly badass.

http://www.andrewsleather.com/firepower.htm

 

[gunselman]

I might send a email to my NFA lawyer and see how he reads it.

I am curios to what your "NFA Lawyer" said.

Here are 2 ATF letters stating that these are perfectly legal.
http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/PistolGrippedShotgunLike.pdf
http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/testttt20001.pdf

 

[engineerpower]

All these guys standing around, and nobody can show her how to shoot a shotgun?

 

[1911ly]

I am curios to what your "NFA Lawyer" said.

Here are 2 ATF letters stating that these are perfectly legal.
http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/PistolGrippedShotgunLike.pdf
http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/testttt20001.pdf

I never did get around to asking. I found enough info that I feel it's a SBS under Indiana's law. So that's what matters to me. I am not going to touch one. You other brave souls go forth and test the waters.

 

[ShootnCut]

How could an 870 Remington with any barrel length be considered a short barreled rifle?

 

[engineerpower]

I think he means "SBS".

 

[1911ly]

How could an 870 Remington with any barrel length be considered a short barreled rifle?

I think he means "SBS".

Yep. My bad. meant SBS!

 

[arthrimus]

Does Indiana law define a "shotgun" or do we defer to the federal definition?

 

[1911ly]

As "I" read it Indiana does not permit a short barreled shotgun. The gun in question meets the requirement as a SBS. State laws trump federal laws. I am not a lawyer so don't take my word as gospel. This is just how I read it.

 

[arthrimus]

I get where you are coming from, but my question is not whether or not Indiana allows short barreled shotguns, because I already know it does not. What I am asking is if Indiana has a legal definition of a shotgun like the federal government does. If Indiana does not, then I'd like to know what definition the courts would use to determine if the object in question was in fact a shotgun.

If Indiana does not have a definition for a shotgun than I can only assume that they fall back to the federal definition. If they did not, then how would these Super Shorties be legal here, since they are also short barreled shotguns, only falling under a different federal definition.

 

[ShootnCut]

IC 35-47-1-10
"Sawed-off shotgun"
Sec. 10. "Sawed-off shotgun" means:
(1) a shotgun having one (1) or more barrels less than eighteen(18) inches in length; and
(2) any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration,
modification, or otherwise) if the weapon as modified has an
overall length of less than twenty-six (26) inches.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.
IC 35-47-1-11
"Shotgun"
Sec. 11. "Shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made
or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed
or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive
in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number
of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.

 

[ShootnCut]

An 870 sold with a pistol grip only was never intended to be fired from the shoulder so it does not qualify as a shotgun. The 4473 is filled out as "other".
The above post is from the Indiana laws not the federal laws.

 

[engineerpower]

See post #46.

 

[engineerpower]

Never mind, here it is again.

Here are the relevant snippets of Indiana Code:

IC 35-47-1-10
"Sawed-off shotgun"
Sec. 10. "Sawed-off shotgun" means:
(1) a shotgun having one (1) or more barrels less than eighteen (18) inches in length; and
(2) any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if the weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six (26) inches.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.


IC 35-47-1-11
"Shotgun"
Sec. 11. "Shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.

IC 35-47-1-6
"Handgun"
Sec. 6. "Handgun" means any firearm:
(1) designed or adapted so as to be aimed and fired from one (1) hand, regardless of barrel length; or
(2) any firearm with:
(A) a barrel less than sixteen (16) inches in length; or
(B) an overall length of less than twenty-six (26) inches.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.


From US Code:
26 U.S. Code § 5845 (e) Any other weapon

The term “any other weapon” means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.


As I understand the code, a PGO shotgun would be considered a "pistol" in Indiana, and since it never had a shoulder stock even with the birdshead grip, it cannot be considered a "shotgun". The ATF letter relied on to kosher-ize this configuration states that 26" is the criteria for being "concealable". I don't see where a PGO shotgun with a 14" barrel and enough pistolgrip to bring it to 26" runs afoul IC, and the only issue with U.S.C. is the "pistol... having a barrel with a smooth bore designed... to fire a fixed shotgun shell". How is that they're getting around this part how the code?

And post #48:

IC 35-47-1-11
"Shotgun"
Sec. 11. "Shotgun" means a weapon designed... to be fired from the shoulder AND designed... to use... a fixed shotgun shell...
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.

I've cleaned up the chaff from the code, and hope this clarifies it. As I read it, a device needs to have a shoulder stock AND use a shotshell. Thus a factory PGO only meets 1 of the 2 conditions, and thus is not a "shotgun" and is instead considered a handgun in Indiana.

 

[arthrimus]

So it's safe to say that 26"+ PGOs are legal in Indiana, and are not NFA items.

 

[1911ly]

I'd read it as a barrel length of 18 or plus inches and a 26 or plus inches. It has to meet those two requirements. I have a Mossberg 500 with a pistol grip and a 18 1/2 inch barrel and it is legal. In Indiana you can't have a barrel length less then 18 if it takes a shotgun shell (except AOW with pistol grip). I hope I worded that correctly.

IMHO it's a stupid law.

 

[ShootnCut]

I never did get around to asking. I found enough info that I feel it's a SBS under Indiana's law. So that's what matters to me. I am not going to touch one. You other brave souls go forth and test the waters.

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

 

[arthrimus]

I'd read it as a barrel length of 18 or plus inches and a 26 or plus inches. It has to meet those two requirements. I have a Mossberg 500 with a pistol grip and a 18 1/2 inch barrel and it is legal. In Indiana you can't have a barrel length less then 18 if it takes a shotgun shell (except AOW with pistol grip). I hope I worded that correctly.

IMHO it's a stupid law.

You may have read it that way, but the ATF does not.

Based on this legislative history and, in an effort to achieve consistent application of the law, ATF utilizes 26 inches as a presumptive standard to determine whether a firearm is "capable of being concealed on the person."

under NFA, barrel length is relevant only in regard to rifles and shotguns. Firearms that come equipped with a pistol grip in place of the buttstock are not "shotguns" as defined by the NFA. Therefore, in determining whether a firearm is "capable of being concealed on the person," barrel length is considered only to the extent that is constitutes a portion of the overall-length measurement of the firearm.

According to Indiana's definition of a shotgun, pistol grip only shotguns are not legally "shotguns" at all, because they do not meet both the criteria laid out in that definition. Therefore, pistol grip only shotguns cannot be subject to Indiana's SBS ban, because they are not "shotguns" in the first place.

IC 35-47-1-11
"Shotgun"
Sec. 11. "Shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.

 

[1911ly]

IC 35-47-1-11
"Shotgun"
Sec. 11. "Shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.

The red and blue text seem to be the deal breaker for me. But I have pointed this out before.

I hope you can get it to fly. Because I'll try it. I am not against the idea. Just don't like club fed.