super shorty

[arthrimus]

IC 35-47-1-11
"Shotgun"
Sec. 11. "Shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.

The red and blue text seem to be the deal breaker for me. But I have pointed this out before.

I hope you can get it to fly. Because I'll try it. I am not against the idea. Just don't like club fed.

"A weapon designed... to be fired from the shoulder AND designed... to use the energy of... a fixed shotgun shell..."

AND not OR.

This means there are TWO separate conditions that must BOTH be met for a firearm to fall under this definition. It is not either or. Therefore, a firearm that is not designed to be fired from the shoulder is not a shotgun, regardless of what type of ammunition it fires. PERIOD.

 

[ShootnCut]

IC 35-47-1-11
"Shotgun"
Sec. 11. "Shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.

The red and blue text seem to be the deal breaker for me. But I have pointed this out before.

I hope you can get it to fly. Because I'll try it. I am not against the idea. Just don't like club fed.

Based on what I've seen and read I think it's perfectly legal. (Although admittedly a little "hazy")
And I do understand your concern. In fact the concern I have is the simple fact that I don't believe there will be 1 percent of all the law enforcement in the entire state that will understand the interpretation of the law. And I don't mean that as a slam against law enforcement, but the fact is I've studied the NFA laws for 30 years and I just learned about all of this in the past month. So having copies of the two letters that are out there and a picture of the end tag from the box the gun came in will be a good idea to keep with the gun.
I guess time will tell....................

 

[engineerpower]

Does anyone know if the Indiana State Police offer letters similar to the ATF's Tech Branch? If they have a resource that would clarify the Stat's stance on these, that would help considerably.

 

[ATM]

AND not OR.

This means there are TWO separate conditions that must BOTH be met for a firearm to fall under this definition. It is not either or. Therefore, a firearm that is not designed to be fired from the shoulder is not a shotgun, regardless of what type of ammunition it fires. PERIOD.

Of course I agree, but I don't think you'll be able to overcome an unsupported fear with another simple explanation of English sentence structure.
A shotgun has clearly been defined in code as a weapon meeting both those criteria.

Anyone choosing to believe otherwise has adopted their own more inclusive definition and will self-impose their own versions of restrictions to adhere to not found in the text.

You can't dispel a restriction they've imposed upon themselves.

 

[1911ly]

I emailed my NFA Lawyer this AM. I sent him a link to the fire arm in question. This was my response.

[FONT=&quot]http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?page_id=88

Larry:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Short barreled shotguns are prohibited by Indiana Code 35-47-1-10 and Indiana Code 35-47-5-4.1. Just like some states prohibit the possession of machineguns and suppressors. Indiana prohibits short barreled shotguns unless you are law enforcement or an SOT. This has always been my understanding, unless there is something new in the works. I hope all is well.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Grant[/FONT]

So I'd say I was correct in assuming it's a SBS. Or at least my lawyer agrees with me. Im sticking with my lawyer on this one.

 

[arthrimus]

Perhaps your lawyer needs to refresh his memory on Indiana Code 35-47-1-11 which states in plain English that in order for a firearm to be defined as a "shotgun" under Indiana law, it must be designed to be shouldered and fire a shotgun shell. He seems to be having the same hang up that you are having, and it seems to be rooted in the fact that the firearms we are discussing LOOK and FUNCTION just like shotguns, but are in fact not legally considered to be "shotguns" due to a technical definition provided in the law.

If it's not too much trouble, I'd ask that you have your lawyer reread IC 35-47-1-11 with this firearm in mind, and see if he comes to a different conclusion.

 

[1911ly]

Perhaps your lawyer needs to refresh his memory on Indiana Code 35-47-1-11 which states in plain English that in order for a firearm to be defined as a "shotgun" under Indiana law, it must be designed to be shouldered and fire a shotgun shell. He seems to be having the same hang up that you are having, and it seems to be rooted in the fact that the firearms we are discussing LOOK and FUNCTION just like shotguns, but are in fact not legally considered to be "shotguns" due to a technical definition provided in the law.

If it's not too much trouble, I'd ask that you have your lawyer reread IC 35-47-1-11 with this firearm in mind, and see if he comes to a different conclusion.

I don't think I can question his NFA skills. I ask and received a reasonable answer to my question. I think you should just order it. Go for it! I am out of this conversion till I see one of you guys sporting one of these! Then I'll be more interested.

 

[arthrimus]

I don't think I can question his NFA skills. I ask and received a reasonable answer to my question. I think you should just order it. Go for it! I am out of this conversion till I see one of you guys sporting one of these! Then I'll be more interested.

I understand your not wanting to question him, or to bother him further after receiving an answer. I don't see it as a matter of questioning his NFA skills, as I am sure he is quite well versed in NFA law. It's Indiana law that seems to be the issue, and while his statement that we have a SBS ban is true, this firearm is not defined as a shotgun in Indiana, and I believe that if he were to read IC 35-47-1-11 with this particular firearm in mind, he would also see that according to the letter of the law, this firearm is not a shotgun.

Regardless, I intend to continue pursuit of both this, and the related concept that I am working on in the neighboring thread. Hopefully I can ultimately dig up something definitive so we can put this debate to rest. I'll let you know as soon as I do.

EDIT: Also, does your NFA lawyer see these Serbu Super Shorties as falling under the Indiana SBS ban? By the same standard of definition that he is applying to non NFA PGOs, super shorties would also be short barreled shotguns under Indiana law, regardless of their classification as AOWs under federal law.

 

[engineerpower]

Ultimately, the SBS ban needs to get the ax this next legislative session. It is completely ridiculous that we are "allowed" suppressed full-auto in this state, but no 14" 870's.

Oh, and God help you if you have ninja stars...

 

[1911ly]

I understand your not wanting to question him, or to bother him further after receiving an answer. I don't see it as a matter of questioning his NFA skills, as I am sure he is quite well versed in NFA law. It's Indiana law that seems to be the issue, and while his statement that we have a SBS ban is true, this firearm is not defined as a shotgun in Indiana, and I believe that if he were to read IC 35-47-1-11 with this particular firearm in mind, he would also see that according to the letter of the law, this firearm is not a shotgun.

Regardless, I intend to continue pursuit of both this, and the related concept that I am working on in the neighboring thread. Hopefully I can ultimately dig up something definitive so we can put this debate to rest. I'll let you know as soon as I do.

EDIT: Also, does your NFA lawyer see these Serbu Super Shorties as falling under the Indiana SBS ban? By the same standard of definition that he is applying to non NFA PGOs, super shorties would also be short barreled shotguns under Indiana law, regardless of their classification as AOWs under federal law.

Responce to the edit: I don't have to call him to answer that question. The Serbu's are an AOW. There for a NFA weapon. You might be able to make the Shockwave a AOW. Apply and see. AOW and SBS are two different items. You are making up a gray area in the middle that doesn't seem to exist. The shock wave is a SBS in Indiana until someone gets it defined as a AOW. Regardless, In Indiana the Shockwave is not a over the counter gun. It's NFA.

 

[arthrimus]

Responce to the edit: I don't have to call him to answer that question. The Serbu's are an AOW. There for a NFA weapon. You might be able to make the Shockwave a AOW. Apply and see. AOW and SBS are two different items. You are making up a gray area in the middle that doesn't seem to exist. The shock wave is a SBS in Indiana until someone gets it defined as a AOW. Regardless, In Indiana the Shockwave is not a over the counter gun. It's NFA.

Not according to plain English definitions presented in Indiana law. Also, a state's definition of a firearm has no bearing on the federal definition of a firearm. Shockwave PGOs have been officially approved of as non NFA items by the ATF firearms technology branch. No matter how you want to incorrectly interpret Indiana law on this matter, you cannot turn these into NFA items. No state law gets to determine NFA, the federal government does, because it is federal law.

EDIT: In that same vein, federal law does not determine state law except in cases where it preempts it explicitly. As far as I can tell Indiana does not have a state definition of an AOW. Therefore there is not way to determine if the state of Indiana even recognizes the existence of AOWs. The serbu super shorty is a no less a firearm with "a barrel length less then 18 (that) takes a shotgun shell" than is a shockwave. They are both firearms, with smooth bore barrels under 18", built on what is traditionally a shotgun receiver, and equipped only with a pistol grip. That federal law defines one as an AOW has no bearing on Indiana's definition or lack thereof.

 

[ShootnCut]

I don't think I can question his NFA skills. I ask and received a reasonable answer to my question. I think you should just order it. Go for it! I am out of this conversion till I see one of you guys sporting one of these! Then I'll be more interested.

See post #78. I already put one of these together. It's in the picture. The whole concept has actually become common knowledge among the local gun shops. And I'm seriously considering taking it to the local police department where a friend works and discussing it with him and any other interested officers. I guess we'll get some answers then won't we?

No Guts, No Glory!

 

[engineerpower]

See post #78. I already put one of these together. It's in the picture. The whole concept has actually become common knowledge among the local gun shops. And I'm seriously considering taking it to the local police department where a friend works and discussing it with him and any other interested officers. I guess we'll get some answers then won't we?

No Guts, No Glory!

Don't bring it in, they'll most likely confiscate it and/or arrest you. Even though they'd be wrong to do so, they'll do it anyway and you'll have a lot of headache on your hands.

I'm trying to find the correct office at the State Police to get a Tech Branch-esque letter clarifying their stance on it.

 

[Bill of Rights]

I don't think I can question his NFA skills. I ask and received a reasonable answer to my question. I think you should just order it. Go for it! I am out of this conversion till I see one of you guys sporting one of these! Then I'll be more interested.

With all due respect, 1911ly, you need to contact VUPDBlue or bigcraig, both INGO members, and neither of whom was LEO when they purchased their Serbu/KEG weapons. (VUPDBlue now is LEO, but was not then) Shooter521 (also an INGO member) has one, too, IIRC

I have fired both of these at NFA Day, and when I can afford to do so, I will be purchasing one. They. Are. FUN!

They are also 100% legal in Indiana. If you wish, contact your lawyer again and point out the two differing viewpoints (or hell, have him join INGO!) and let him make the determination for you based on both sides of the question, rather than only one portion of the written law.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, just a guy here who has a wee bit more info than has been posted.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[1911ly]

With all due respect, 1911ly, you need to contact VUPDBlue or bigcraig, both INGO members, and neither of whom was LEO when they purchased their Serbu/KEG weapons. (VUPDBlue now is LEO, but was not then) Shooter521 (also an INGO member) has one, too, IIRC

I have fired both of these at NFA Day, and when I can afford to do so, I will be purchasing one. They. Are. FUN!

They are also 100% legal in Indiana. If you wish, contact your lawyer again and point out the two differing viewpoints (or hell, have him join INGO!) and let him make the determination for you based on both sides of the question, rather than only one portion of the written law.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, just a guy here who has a wee bit more info than has been posted.

Blessings,
Bill

Are you following to whole conversation? Are you agreeing with the others that the Serbu's don't need a stamp.

My understanding is the Serbu's are a AOW. SBS guns are not legal in Indiana. It's has been said that you can just build the Shockwave with a pistol grip and a 12-14 inch barrel. No tax. I don't agree because I am seriously uninformed. I prefer to stay stupid and out of jail.. If you guys can get it to fly sign me up! We'll have the coolest meet and greet. I'll provide the first 500 rounds.

 

[arthrimus]

Are you following to whole conversation? Are you agreeing with the others that the Serbu's don't need a stamp.

My understanding is the Serbu's are a AOW. SBS guns are not legal in Indiana. It's has been said that you can just build the Shockwave with a pistol grip and a 12-14 inch barrel. No tax. I don't agree because I am seriously uninformed. I prefer to stay stupid and out of jail.. If you guys can get it to fly sign me up! We'll have the coolest meet and greet. I'll provide the first 500 rounds.

Whoa whoa whoa, nobody EVER said that the Serbus don't need a stamp! They absolutely do! It's Federal law! We were talking about PGO guns with an overall length greater than 26" which are defined by the ATF as non NFA items.

Additionally, I'd like to point out that the federal definition of a shotgun is the reason for the ATF's position that these 26"+ PGO guns are not shotguns, and are therefore not subject to NFA, and that the Indiana definition of a shotgun mirrors the Federal one word for word. If the ATF came to the conclusion that they did with that definition, Indiana would be hard pressed to interpret the same definition substantially differently.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Are you following to whole conversation? Are you agreeing with the others that the Serbu's don't need a stamp.

My understanding is the Serbu's are a AOW. SBS guns are not legal in Indiana. It's has been said that you can just build the Shockwave with a pistol grip and a 12-14 inch barrel. No tax. I don't agree because I am seriously uninformed. I prefer to stay stupid and out of jail.. If you guys can get it to fly sign me up! We'll have the coolest meet and greet. I'll provide the first 500 rounds.

Whoa whoa whoa, nobody EVER said that the Serbus don't need a stamp! They absolutely do! It's Federal law! We were talking about PGO guns with an overall length greater than 26" which are defined by the ATF as non NFA items.

Additionally, I'd like to point out that the federal definition of a shotgun is the reason for the ATF's position that these 26"+ PGO guns are not shotguns, and are therefore not subject to NFA, and that the Indiana definition of a shotgun mirrors the Federal one word for word. If the ATF came to the conclusion that they did with that definition, Indiana would be hard pressed to interpret the same definition substantially differently.

This. I didn't see anyone say a Serbu didn't need a stamp. Being AOWs, they need a $5 tax stamp to transfer. All that was being said here is that even though it fires a shotgun shell, a Serbu (or KEG) is not a "shotgun" under IN or federal law, because, since they never had a shoulder stock on them, they were never designed to be fired from the shoulder. Note that this applies to a virgin receiver or to one that came from the factory with PGO. Once it has a shoulder stock on it, it is forever thereafter a shotgun. If its barrel is less than 18" OR it's overall length is less than 26", or both, THEN you would have a SBS, which would be unlawful according to Indiana state law, however, until it has a shoulder stock, those length limits do not apply.

Think about the Taurus Judge, and others that fire shotgun shells. No way is that barrel or OAL over the lengths for SBS, but they're still legal here. No license required to buy, just to carry off your own property.

As for the Shockwave, no, I am not familiar with that, however, again: virgin receiver or PGO from factory, I would think you could build it without any headaches or special licenses as long as both barrel and OAL length requirements are met. If you're BUILDING a Serbu-style weapon (i.e. PGO with shorter barrel than SBS limits), that would require a $200 tax stamp.

In sum: Buy from a mfgr, need to clear the background check and pay $5.00 to Uncle Sam. Build it yourself, clear background check and $200.00 tax stamp.

Hope that clarifies what I was saying.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[chezuki]

Think about the Taurus Judge, and others that fire shotgun shells. No way is that barrel or OAL over the lengths for SBS, but they're still legal here. No license required to buy, just to carry off your own property.

The Judge is legal because has a rifled barrel. If it was smooth-bore, it would be an AOW.


I see no reason why a PGO (or virgin) shotgun receiver couldn't have a rifled barrel chopped to any length and remain legal without a stamp, it would be no different than the judge. IANAL.

 

[digitalrebel80]

It can't because of the max 50 cal rule

The Judge is legal because has a rifled barrel. If it was smooth-bore, it would be an AOW.


I see no reason why a PGO (or virgin) shotgun receiver couldn't have a rifled barrel chopped to any length and remain legal without a stamp, it would be no different than the judge. IANAL.

 

[chezuki]

It can't because of the max 50 cal rule

Ah, I was thinking there was something like that, but I couldn't remember for sure.

The shot spread from a rifled AOW would be ridiculous anyway! (even more than it does with a smooth bore)