SWAT invades innocent man's home - Burns it down with a flashbang - Father killed

[rambone]

you do drugs ...you deserve to die !
welcome to america

I really have nothing else to say, but to say that has to be the most ignorant comment so far

Its the truth though. That's what passes for freedom these days. Welcome to the New America.

 

[Lex Concord]

If you want to argue against no-knock warrants, that's fine. That wasn't the stated concern here though. Would you care to share your suggestions for how the police should handle search warrants?

How about just going back to the way they were executed before half the sheriffs and small-town chiefs got envious of Daryl Gates and started receiving truckloads of federal cash to fulfill their wildest tacticool dreams?

This is the core issue, the belief that every town needs a SWAT team and that damn-near every situation is an excuse to deploy. I mean, after all, what is all the point of all the Special Weapons and Tactics if you can't employ them from time to time?

Gates, considered the father of SWAT (Special Weapons And Tactics), established the specialized unit in order to deal with hostage rescue and extreme situations involving armed and dangerous suspects. Ordinary street officers, with light armament, limited weapons training and little instruction on group fighting techniques, had shown to be ineffective in dealing with snipers, bank robberies carried out by heavily armed persons, and other high-intensity situations. In 1965, Officer John Nelson came up with the idea to form a specially trained and equipped unit to respond to and manage critical situations while minimizing police casualties.[

The original intent of SWAT teams was not for serving search warrants on druggies who might know something about a murder.

Sadly, much like with the Constitution, most have acceded to the abandonment of this original intent and are happy to live with this brave new world in order to feel safe.

While this may have been an accident, and this guy may have been a meth-head, that doesn't change the fact that there is far too much time and money spent to train LEO to behave like soldiers in this country.

The core issue is not the officers' actions in this particular case, but the mindset in countless towns and burgs across this land and in D.C. that have precipitated these events and others like them which do, on occasion, actually take the lives of innocent individuals due to mistaken identity or someone being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I do not question the actions of the officers here - though it is entirely possible they were in error, they were probably just following orders and training. I question the town council that decided to gorge at the federal trough, and the chief that saw the need to deploy a SWAT team in a situation where it seems no shots had been fired or threats had been made.

This thread has numerous examples of this massive forest being missed for the trees. I think, in some cases, it is willful, and possibly an attempt at misdirection.

 

[Benny]

No, I don't. Barricading is an active deed of defiance. The message is quite clear: I don't intend to come out. Non-compliance is simply that. It could be "I'm not coming out." But it could be "I can't come out." And while the "won't come out" is limited to one reason and one reason alone, the "can't come out" could be due to a whole host of reasons. Are we talking about likely scenarios? I don't think so. But if one is going to justify the actions of LE based on the argument that the guy was doing bad things, he damn well better be doing bad things. Police actions based on assumptions usually end up with feces splattered all over the ceiling. Nobody could say for sure there was anybody in the home, let alone that it was Serrato, let alone that he was actively defying their demands to come out. A whole lot of assumption taking place there.




Did I not say it was simply a hypothesis? I merely brought it up to highlight the fact that his non-compliance could have been explained as something other than defiance. The fact remains that when they fired off the flash-bang they didn't know why he wasn't coming out.

The bottom line is this: the search warrant was for a simple fact-finding mission; Serrato wasn't even the murder suspect. Police later confirmed he wasn't even present at the bar during the shooting. And the excuse for all the bells and whistles was that they intended on arresting him for two MISDEMEANOR charges. And for all of that piddly crap, they implement a full-on SWAT action that results in the guy's death. It's not a stretch to say their approach was heavy on the use of force and light on the detective work.

You are right, there was a very, very slim chance he was unable to come out of the house, so I can't really argue with you about that. It was said that they saw him in the window though, so I guess I'm just going off of that...Which isn't a lot, because I'd be lying to myself if I thought that authority figures have never lied about something to cover their own screw up.

(Bolded part) No, no it isn't and I sure hope someone will be held accountable for this.

Its the truth though. That's what passes for freedom these days. Welcome to the New America.

Are you going to address my or jsharmon's last post(s) about how the SWAT ordered him to exit for hours before the flashbang or are you going to keep spreading lies?

 

[88GT]

You are right, there was a very, very slim chance he was unable to come out of the house, so I can't really argue with you about that. It was said that they saw him in the window though, so I guess I'm just going off of that...Which isn't a lot, because I'd be lying to myself if I thought that authority figures have never lied about something to cover their own screw up.

And to be honest, I missed that part about them seeing a man in the window when I read that article. (I'm a little ADD on the computer when it comes to reading. I tend to skip-read more than I should.) I don't even doubt they saw the guy. I'll take it at face value. I'm more concerned with the fact that they lit up his home BEFORE they saw him or anyone else and with apparently no regard to the possibility of additional people being in the home. I think his failure to exit is nothing more than a curiosity though. It doesn't change anything about the tactics or willingness to go whole-hog with the use of force and lots of it by departments all across the country in situations that CLEARLY do not warrant it.

(Bolded part) No, no it isn't and I sure hope someone will be held accountable for this.

That makes two of us.

 

[88GT]

On a side note, I've been trying to figure out what rifle the SWAT guy in the pic actually is. My identification skills are limited and there's not enough detail for me to make it out. Guesses?

 

[sparky241]

tag for later

 

[Rookie]

Actually if LEOs wanted to use my house for training id let em. They have to train somehow (talking about a real training situation). Much like people donate cars and homes to the local FD for practice why cant we let the LEOs train with real world situations.

We should react by enacting training that makes sure this doesn't happen again. Honestly im surprised these kind of mistakes are still being made. You train to fight, and fight so you can come home and train some more.

A single accidental death is to many, but there is a reason its called accidental.

How about non LEO? I've been dying to practice house clearing techniques, but I don't want to repair drywall. Party at your house this weekend?

 

[LPMan59]

anyone else here see the potential irony in that a few members complain about the cops wearing camo, having body armor and carrying AR (platform) rifles when many (of the same?) members carry the exact same thing in their cars "just in case."

when a cop, whose job it is to go FIND bad guys, wears camo, it's evidence of JB thuggery and Statism. But when an INGO member does it while cruising around Carmel, it's just "being prepared" or "expressing 2A rights"?

carry on.

 

[Duncan]

Another casualty in the war against Drugs .
Another drug related death .
America is a safer place tonight .

 

[radonc73]

Would you feel better if he had been tazed to death?

 

[Duncan]

anyone else here see the potential irony in that a few members complain about the cops wearing camo, having body armor and carrying AR (platform) rifles when many (of the same?) members carry the exact same thing in their cars "just in case."

when a cop, whose job it is to go FIND bad guys, wears camo, it's evidence of JB thuggery and Statism. But when an INGO member does it while cruising around Carmel, it's just "being prepared" or "expressing 2A rights"?

carry on.

One must remember that there is a difference between the Military
the Militia and Police the purpose of each and the force and control of force that is proper within each segment .

Thanks
Duncan

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHgh2QWOa0Y[/ame]

 

[88GT]

anyone else here see the potential irony in that a few members complain about the cops wearing camo, having body armor and carrying AR (platform) rifles when many (of the same?) members carry the exact same thing in their cars "just in case."

when a cop, whose job it is to go FIND bad guys, wears camo, it's evidence of JB thuggery and Statism. But when an INGO member does it while cruising around Carmel, it's just "being prepared" or "expressing 2A rights"?

carry on.

Deflection of the issue does not negate the issues.

 

[malern28us]

Just wonder what meth intoxication does to someone. I remember my sister would sleep for an entire day after one of her partying "episodes." I wonder how quickly a person that drank enough alcohol to pass out would get up to answer the door? Better yet, if you could wake them, who is going to go outside when you see a "military force" in your front yard and arent thinking clearly?

I do think it is worth waiting longer than an hour to escalate the situation if it means a persons life. What if it was your father or brother in that house.

A "high" person still has rights. If we start determining who doesnt deserve to have all of their rights because they have a history of criminal behavior, we are sadly mistaken.

If that is the case, I know a lot of overweight people that need to be denied medical care because they eat to much. Just saying....

 

[E5RANGER375]

sorry, this post was a computer error on my part. it can be deleted.

 

[E5RANGER375]

anyone else here see the potential irony in that a few members complain about the cops wearing camo, having body armor and carrying AR (platform) rifles when many (of the same?) members carry the exact same thing in their cars "just in case."

when a cop, whose job it is to go FIND bad guys, wears camo, it's evidence of JB thuggery and Statism. But when an INGO member does it while cruising around Carmel, it's just "being prepared" or "expressing 2A rights"?

carry on.

The difference is that the average citizen even if they wear camo, have an AR, body armor, and are prepared, do not have the authority to detain, pull you over, take away your feedoms, etc like a cop does. Citizens who are prepared are within the law of the united states and indiana constitutions requirements for a citizen militia. SWAT teams violate the constitutions in my opinion. this is a failure on the state level. we need to get laws passed that prevent these Armys in the streets

 

[malern28us]

The difference is that the average citizen even if they wear camo, have an AR, body armor, and are prepared, do not have the authority to detain, pull you over, take away your feedoms, etc like a cop does. Citizens who are prepared are within the law of the united states and indiana constitutions requirements for a citizen militia. SWAT teams violate the constitutions in my opinion. this is a failure on the state level. we need to get laws passed that prevent these Armys in the streets

Please no more laws. They are all so confusing.

 

[E5RANGER375]

Please no more laws. They are all so confusing.

well im not the one that passed all the illegal laws now on the books. sadly we have to pass some more to get the old ones null and void.

 

[edporch]

Does anyone remember or did you see the original footage from WACO?
That tank came out of the building and I swear that it had a flame thrower in the turret!

I saw that too, where as the tank backed out of the building there was flame coming out of the end of the tube/barrel on the turret.

Additionally, David Koresh would typically go for a daily run around the country block the compound was on, and he could've been easily arrested.

In the end, the government never showed any evidence of ANY illegally created fully automatic weapons, claiming that the fire fused the internal parts of EVERY gun together to the point that whether it was a fully automatic weapon couldn't be differentiated.

It seems hard for me to believe that EVERY gun's internals were melted into a solid glob and NO parts could be identified.

At this point this whole thing appears to have been set in motion because a group of people chose to live in a way that a lot of us would've thought as weird.

 

[rjstew317]

I saw that too, where as the tank backed out of the building there was flame coming out of the end of the tube/barrel on the turret.

Additionally, David Koresh would typically go for a daily run around the country block the compound was on, and he could've been easily arrested.

In the end, the government never showed any evidence of ANY illegally created fully automatic weapons, claiming that the fire fused the internal parts of EVERY gun together to the point that whether it was a fully automatic weapon couldn't be differentiated.

It seems hard for me to believe that EVERY gun's internals were melted into a solid glob and NO parts could be identified.

At this point this whole thing appears to have been set in motion because a group of people chose to live in a way that a lot of us would've thought as weird.

 

[Liberty Sanders]

The difference is that the average citizen even if they wear camo, have an AR, body armor, and are prepared, do not have the authority to detain, pull you over, take away your feedoms, etc like a cop does. Citizens who are prepared are within the law of the united states and indiana constitutions requirements for a citizen militia. SWAT teams violate the constitutions in my opinion. this is a failure on the state level. we need to get laws passed that prevent these Armys in the streets

The problem isn't with the SWAT teams. It's in how they're deployed.

SWAT is necessary in dealing with things like barricaded suspects (real ones, not imaginary) and hostage situations. Back in the day when I was on the street in Cincinnati our team might deploy once or twice a year.

The drug war has poured seized money into LEO agencies allowing them to buy stuff they don't need. Small departments send their personnel to SWAT training, then have no true SWAT situations for years on end.

The solution is to CREATE a need for SWAT by turning routine duties into a SWAT situation.

In my day the idea of sending SWAT to execute a search or arrest warrant, even for a murder suspect, would have been considered laughable. We just didn't do it. SWAT stands for SPECIAL weapons and tactics.

There is nothing SPECIAL about serving a warrant. You go up and you knock on the bad man's door. If he doesn't open it you kick it in, and you go in and get him. I did it dozens of times in my career and never required SWAT to do it.

SWAT must be returned to its origins wherein SWAT deployment becomes a RARE occurence, as it should be, rather than a ROUTINE one as it is now.