SWAT invades innocent man's home - Burns it down with a flashbang - Father killed

[Keyser Soze]

Yea swat is a big waste of money..who do these guys think they are going through countless hours of training. They should not dress up in armor..that stuff should be left to the military!!! Never mind many trainers are active or retired military Never mind many swat members are X military.

In all honestly I only read these threads for the lulz. I do honestly agree swat is a big waste of time and money till you need them. I really lol @ you guys " they can just call state police and use there swat" Riiiiiiiiiight..........

 

[Keyser Soze]

The problem isn't with the SWAT teams. It's in how they're deployed.

SWAT is necessary in dealing with things like barricaded suspects (real ones, not imaginary) and hostage situations. Back in the day when I was on the street in Cincinnati our team might deploy once or twice a year.

The drug war has poured seized money into LEO agencies allowing them to buy stuff they don't need. Small departments send their personnel to SWAT training, then have no true SWAT situations for years on end.

The solution is to CREATE a need for SWAT by turning routine duties into a SWAT situation.

In my day the idea of sending SWAT to execute a search or arrest warrant, even for a murder suspect, would have been considered laughable. We just didn't do it. SWAT stands for SPECIAL weapons and tactics.

There is nothing SPECIAL about serving a warrant. You go up and you knock on the bad man's door. If he doesn't open it you kick it in, and you go in and get him. I did it dozens of times in my career and never required SWAT to do it.

SWAT must be returned to its origins wherein SWAT deployment becomes a RARE occurence, as it should be, rather than a ROUTINE one as it is now.

You are as always correct. Except "The drug war has poured seized money into LEO agencies allowing them to buy stuff they don't need" Liberty in Indiana we get a very small % of seizure money. The majority goes the the state/prosecutors office.......

 

[rambone]

Yea swat is a big waste of money..who do these guys think they are going through countless hours of training. They should not dress up in armor..that stuff should be left to the military!!! Never mind many trainers are active or retired military Never mind many swat members are X military.

It doesn't make me any more comfortable knowing that these guys are actual soldiers, or trained by actual soldiers.

You are as always correct. Except "The drug war has poured seized money into LEO agencies allowing them to buy stuff they don't need" Liberty in Indiana we get a very small % of seizure money. The majority goes the the state/prosecutors office.......

I don't think he was implying that the only source of "Drug War" funding was coming from seizures.

 

[radonc73]

Most of the time the situation is over long before SWAT arrives. I HATE seeing how militarized the police have become. I don't think I am in the minority here. If it were up to me than we wouldn't use X-military to train police in their tactics which are being used against citizens of the U.S.. If they want to play Army than join the service and retire from that where you REALLY need an APC on a daily basis. Not even Gary compares to Afganistan or Iraq on its worst day.

 

[Keyser Soze]

If they want to play Army than join the service and retire from that where you REALLY need an APC on a daily basis. Not even Gary compares to Afganistan or Iraq on its worst day.

I can only speak for the squat guys I have met around south central indiana......No one wants to play army....In fact they would love nothing more than to never be called out. They use para military tactics because..................THEY WORK! If swat is being called out police tactics have failed. I agree sometimes swat, cert, or whatever is used inappropriately. THAT specific issue should be fixed. You don't do away with the entire thing. That type of thinking is dangerous IMO.

 

[lashicoN]

Well I, for one, think SWAT wasn't enough. THIS GUY WAS ON METH! AND SLEEPING! They should have dropped a nuke on his house to keep everyone safe. The police weren't enough and SWAT wasn't enough to take on this sleeping giant.

 

[level.eleven]

You are as always correct. Except "The drug war has poured seized money into LEO agencies allowing them to buy stuff they don't need" Liberty in Indiana we get a very small % of seizure money. The majority goes the the state/prosecutors office.......

Indiana law dictates that AF money in excess of the cost of law enforcement goes to the common school fund.. No one is following the law and nearly 100% of AF money stays in the justice system in some form - prosecutors, police and even private attorneys.

Ogden on Politics: Indiana Civil Forfeiture Law - Where is the Money Going?

The Indy Star recently did a multi-part feature on Indiana's AF racket and just who is profiting.

Despite law, schools get little of assets seized from crime suspects | The Indianapolis Star | indystar.com

The Government's License To Steal - Reason Magazine

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

I can only speak for the squat guys I have met around south central indiana......No one wants to play army....In fact they would love nothing more than to never be called out. They use para military tactics because..................THEY WORK! If swat is being called out police tactics have failed. I agree sometimes swat, cert, or whatever is used inappropriately. THAT specific issue should be fixed. You don't do away with the entire thing. That type of thinking is dangerous IMO.

If it is the type of situation where normal police procedures fail, that would be one thing. Swat, in identifiable swat gear, sent in for hostage situations and the likes would make sense.

Sending in an APC filled with guys in camo, flash bangs in hand, to kick in a door over a low level drug scumbag is overkill. Police officers do not fail in that situation presently, and that type of force is just not required.

The shock and awe tactics are effective on the battlefield, but I see no reason to apply them in civilian suburbs.

Main street America is not a battlefield, no matter how much people want to pretend it is. Just because a tactic is effective, does not mean it is justified.

 

[03mustgt]

Most of the time the situation is over long before SWAT arrives. I HATE seeing how militarized the police have become. I don't think I am in the minority here. If it were up to me than we wouldn't use X-military to train police in their tactics which are being used against citizens of the U.S.. If they want to play Army than join the service and retire from that where you REALLY need an APC on a daily basis. Not even Gary compares to Afganistan or Iraq on its worst day.

Are you familiar with the shooting involving Officer Jake Laird? A SWAT officer(who also worked the street) was the one who ended that. I believe the incident lasted somewhere around 10-12 minutes. Over 150 rounds fired at police from an AK-47, only one officer returned fire. That happened right here in Indianapolis, but hey we dont need SWAT teams or specially trained officers

 

[03mustgt]

Deputy Sheriff Suzanne Hopper-Shot while taking photographs at a crime scene.

Chief of Police Ralph Painter-Shot and killed while responding to a report of a man stealing a car from a car lot

Police Officer Christopher Matlosz- Shot and killed while talking to a man who was walking on the side of the road.

Police Officer Larry Nehasil- Shot and killed while attempting to arrest two burglary suspects.

Detectives Roger Castillo and Amanda Haworth - Shot and killed while serving a felony warrant on a murder suspect.

Sergeant Tom Baitinger and Officer Jeffrey Yaslowitz - Shot and killed while serving a warrant for for aggravated battery.

Officer David Moore- Shot and killed while conducting a traffic stop

Colonel Greg Malloy- Shot and killed while tracking a man wanted for murder

Deputy Marshal Derek Hotsinpiller- Shot and killed while serving a warrant for the possesion and intent to distribute of cocaine.

Officer John Falcone- Shot and killed when responding to a shots fired called.

Police Officer David Crawford- Shot and killed when responding to a report of a suspicious person.

First, thank you for paying the ultimate sacrifice.


Second,
All of these shootings happened since January 1, 2011. I really dont see any reason why LEO should have any special units who go through much more intense and regular training, and have special equipment.

 

[rambone]

All of these shootings happened since January 1, 2011. I really dont see any reason why LEO should have any special units who go through much more intense and regular training, and have special equipment.

Can there be no reasoning here?? Is this your vision of what SWAT should be?

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

Are you familiar with the shooting involving Officer Jake Laird? A SWAT officer(who also worked the street) was the one who ended that. I believe the incident lasted somewhere around 10-12 minutes. Over 150 rounds fired at police from an AK-47, only one officer returned fire. That happened right here in Indianapolis, but hey we dont need SWAT teams or specially trained officers

What did this incident have to do with a low level drug warrant being served in the suburbs?

Was the swat officer wearing camos? In an APC? Did he throw a flashbang?

Nobody is saying do not train officers... What people seem to be saying is utilizing a full militarized team of swat to kick down the doors of residences to serve warrants for non-violent crimes is ridiculous.

A cop doing his job in one situation does not justify overreaching tactics being deployed in situations where they are not required. The world is a dangerous place, yes, but it is important that the police officers we entrust with securing those streets do not make it unsafe for people in their own homes.

The fact that so many people want to attempt to justify this type of action is a scary thought.

 

[E5RANGER375]

Deputy Sheriff Suzanne Hopper-Shot while taking photographs at a crime scene.

Chief of Police Ralph Painter-Shot and killed while responding to a report of a man stealing a car from a car lot

Police Officer Christopher Matlosz- Shot and killed while talking to a man who was walking on the side of the road.

Police Officer Larry Nehasil- Shot and killed while attempting to arrest two burglary suspects.

Detectives Roger Castillo and Amanda Haworth - Shot and killed while serving a felony warrant on a murder suspect.

Sergeant Tom Baitinger and Officer Jeffrey Yaslowitz - Shot and killed while serving a warrant for for aggravated battery.

Officer David Moore- Shot and killed while conducting a traffic stop

Colonel Greg Malloy- Shot and killed while tracking a man wanted for murder

Deputy Marshal Derek Hotsinpiller- Shot and killed while serving a warrant for the possesion and intent to distribute of cocaine.

Officer John Falcone- Shot and killed when responding to a shots fired called.

Police Officer David Crawford- Shot and killed when responding to a report of a suspicious person.

First, thank you for paying the ultimate sacrifice.


Second,
All of these shootings happened since January 1, 2011. I really dont see any reason why LEO should have any special units who go through much more intense and regular training, and have special equipment.

so you want every officer to look like robocop because some get shot?

i don't want good cops being shot. i bet if you look at the criminal histories of a lot of those killers they have a extensive past. so why don't we start holding our judges and prosecutors and parole officers more accountable in making sure these dirtbags and potential cop OR citizen killers STAY IN JAIL or DIE!?? isn't that better than unnecessarily oppressing or harming truly innocent citizens? and completely turning ALL of our cops into soldiers?

Edit: it would also make the streets safer for everyone including the cops.

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

so you want every officer to look like robocop because some get shot?

i don't want good cops being shot. i bet if you look at the criminal histories of a lot of those killers they have a extensive past. so why don't we start holding our judges and prosecutors and parole officers more accountable in making sure these dirtbags and potential cop OR citizen killers STAY IN JAIL or DIE!?? isn't that better than unnecessarily oppressing or harming truly innocent citizens? and completely turning ALL of our cops into soldiers?

Edit: it would also make the streets safer for everyone including the cops.

^^ This please

 

[radonc73]

Maybe SWAT should be the only people aloud to make traffic stops and collect crime scene info. Maybe all police should turn in the squad cars and get APCs.
I am sorry to hear of their deaths but would calling swat on every traffic stop really be the best solution for the other 99% of us law abiding citizens?

 

[03mustgt]

so you want every officer to look like robocop because some get shot?

i don't want good cops being shot. i bet if you look at the criminal histories of a lot of those killers they have a extensive past. so why don't we start holding our judges and prosecutors and parole officers more accountable in making sure these dirtbags and potential cop OR citizen killers STAY IN JAIL or DIE!?? isn't that better than unnecessarily oppressing or harming truly innocent citizens? and completely turning ALL of our cops into soldiers?

Edit: it would also make the streets safer for everyone including the cops.

Never said I wanted every officer to look like robocop, and in fact i feel that swat officers should work the road just like everyone else. Lets face it, the system doesnt really keep people in jail like it should. I agree with you in that we need to hold the judges, prosecutors, more accountable and keep dirtbags in jail longer. Also, who said I was for oppressing or harming truly innocent citizens? I did not say all cops need to be soldiers, but having a select group of officers who go through more training is never a bad thing.

 

[03mustgt]

Maybe SWAT should be the only people aloud to make traffic stops and collect crime scene info. Maybe all police should turn in the squad cars and get APCs.
I am sorry to hear of their deaths but would calling swat on every traffic stop really be the best solution for the other 99% of us law abiding citizens?

NO, it would not. Please show me an example where a Swat team has been called out on 99 out of 100 traffic stops? It does not happen, and it should not happen. Swat deployments should be reserved for the most dangerous situations. However having SWAT officers working the street just like anyone else is a good thing in my opinion.

 

[03mustgt]

What did this incident have to do with a low level drug warrant being served in the suburbs?

Was the swat officer wearing camos? In an APC? Did he throw a flashbang?

Nobody is saying do not train officers... What people seem to be saying is utilizing a full militarized team of swat to kick down the doors of residences to serve warrants for non-violent crimes is ridiculous.

A cop doing his job in one situation does not justify overreaching tactics being deployed in situations where they are not required. The world is a dangerous place, yes, but it is important that the police officers we entrust with securing those streets do not make it unsafe for people in their own homes.

The fact that so many people want to attempt to justify this type of action is a scary thought.

I am not getting the same thing from this thread that you are. Maybe I am just misunderstanding some responses. I agree that the SWAT team should not be called out on every call and should be reserved for the most dangerous. IMO there seems to be a lot of uproar of training police like soldiers. The reason SWAT train like the military is that THE TRAINING WORKS.

So you only have an issue with the APC and officers wearing CAMO? Just for your info the officer with the Jake Laird shooting was wearing a full uniform and was shot twice, maybe as a result of all the shiny metal he had to wear?, we will never know.

 

[radonc73]

NO, it would not. Please show me an example where a Swat team has been called out on 99 out of 100 traffic stops? It does not happen, and it should not happen. Swat deployments should be reserved for the most dangerous situations. However having SWAT officers working the street just like anyone else is a good thing in my opinion.

But no one knows when that 1% is going to be when some jack hole is going to do something stupid. I mean when they kill the people collecting evidence or writing out a ticket SWAT would be a waste of time, it is long over by the time they get assembled and to their destination.

I think SWAT should just be beat cops trained for hostage situations. Not serving misdemeanor warrants or just about any warrants at all unless they have a MURDER suspect warrant. Just about anyone on this board would be concidered "armed" so I do not think that a possible armed suspect is enough to need SWAT, if we were suspected of a crime or knew someone who has been accused of one like this guy like what was said earlier they could have waited an picked this guy up going to the store, he just knew the guy and they wanted to know if he knew where he was at, a phone call could have got the job done.

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

I am not getting the same thing from this thread that you are. Maybe I am just misunderstanding some responses. I agree that the SWAT team should not be called out on every call and should be reserved for the most dangerous. IMO there seems to be a lot of uproar of training police like soldiers. The reason SWAT train like the military is that THE TRAINING WORKS.

So you only have an issue with the APC and officers wearing CAMO? Just for your info the officer with the Jake Laird shooting was wearing a full uniform and was shot twice, maybe as a result of all the shiny metal he had to wear?, we will never know.

No... I think the camos are silly for obvious identification reasons, and because they do not really give any reasonable tactical advantage, but that is far from the real issue at hand.

The thing that sticks in my mind that is the biggest issue, is SWAT being sent into suburban environments to say, serve a warrant for a non-violent offender. In the instance of a known violent offender, I can understand the justification - but even in that situation, a line exists between reasonable and unreasonable force.

I understand that police have no idea what is going to be on the other side of the door - but whenever SWAT enters a home, they are risking collateral damage to innocent people. Throwing flashbangs into a civilian residence, for instance, is not the best tactic to use. As much as the safety of the officers is extremely important, the rights and safety of those occupying the residence are equally important.

In many situations, the same result can be achieved without the force that is used. In many situations, it is merited - it all just depends on the situation. The balance lies somewhere in the middle, and constant discretion and scrutinized intelligence gathering is always required. Over the course of even the last fifteen years we have moved farther from reasonable discretion, and more towards "shock and awe" tactics.

Training SWAT and military is totally different. Even our military in recent years have changed the tactics in which they train in order to "win hearts and minds". "Shock and awe" style tactics, although effective, are best left to war zones - and suburban neighborhoods are not war zones.