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The Open Carry Argument
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Titanium_Frost
Grandmaster
Quick answer: Anywhere in Indiana it is legal to carry it is legal to carry open or concealed. The state makes no distinction and I have OCed to state parks mulitple times without issue.
On a different note: Make sure you have a good and comfortable holster. Hiking is much more strenuous than normal walking and it will show the weakness of your carry gear.
Understood, I have a Blackhawk SERPA CQC and a SmartCarry for deep concealment...just didn't want to go deep concealment with the heat. Thanks for the quick answer.
CPT Nervous
Grandmaster
I haven't posted here yet? Damn, I'm slow.
CC is for criminals.
I'm never the first person shot anywhere. I'm usually third or fourth. I do get shot everywhere I go, however. I'm just not the first one. We can put that myth to rest.
CC is for criminals.
I'm never the first person shot anywhere. I'm usually third or fourth. I do get shot everywhere I go, however. I'm just not the first one. We can put that myth to rest.
CPT Nervous
Grandmaster
OC is awesome, but sometimes CC just kicks butt on the unsuspecting: Elderly Man Samuel Williams Shoots Robbers at Internet Cafe | Video | TheBlaze.com
OC or CC ... for God's sake just be a Sheepdog since the flock keeps growing.
OC or CC ... for God's sake just be a Sheepdog since the flock keeps growing.
I disagree. The bad guys wouldn't have noticed this guy OCing, and if he had been OCing he could have comfortably carried something substantial like a 1911 or a Five-seveN. Unfortunately this was in Florida where OC is illegal.
Actually if he knew about the Crossbreed or CompTac Minotaur MTAC holster he could easily have been carrying something other than the .380. Still, +1 for the good guys.
blamecharles
Master
I agree with this. I carry in a Crossbreed clone and carry a CZ 75 in .40 that would have done more damage for sure.
CPT Nervous
Grandmaster
CPT Nervous
Grandmaster
No one should still be up, or be up yet. It's insane.
A combat vet's argument for concealed carry
A CONCEALED CARRY ARGUMENT
This is the real question I feel that should be addressed: How many of us are honestly trained for combat to the point that we would advertise we are ready for it? Most of us that carry are definitely not trained for it. Why escalate where things can go bad, fast? Combat shooting is a serious skill set radically different from range shooting. Carrying openly suggests to someone that you are ready for trouble and that someone looking for trouble will find it. To a criminal, you are also advertising that you are trouble. To bystanders and responding police, you are advertising that you MIGHT be trouble. Bystanders don't know the difference until you part ways.
I'm very well-trained in close quarters combat shooting and in most situations as a citizen, I would not pull the gun. A few important reasons why:
1) rule number four of combat shooting - know your target and what's behind it. Chances are people are behind the perp so you have to look for a shot or create one. The criminal might not have any such reservations. I have a high degree of confidence I'll hit what I'm aiming at. The criminal probably will not under that much stress.
Collateral damage is common in urban gunbattles.
2) money and material possessions, whether insured or not, are not worth the life of SOMEONE ELSE. Innocent people can get hurt. Bullets very often travel through barriers and can hurt if not kill. Why take the chance unless absolutely necessary? Better to get the plate # and description of a car or of the suspect for law enforcement.
3) Taking a life, as was stated before, is not something to be taken lightly.
4) If things go badly, and I think we can all agree they can, you might save the day, and still wind up sued or worse, charged with a crime if things aren't clean. The broader issue: threat assessment and the application of force. If you pull a gun you better be prepared to use it. Was it even justifiable?
I'm not sure about where everybody lives, but people around here that open carry have a tendency to get questioned by police, sometimes with the cuffs on, until their identity is verified. This is a regional matter obviously. But why do they do this in a suburb? Because we're not in Tombstone or Dodge City we're in the suburbs. It has nothing to do with Second Amendment violations and open-carry laws. It's because in this day and age, guns carried openly in the hands of a stranger scares the bejezzuz out of most law-abiding citizens. That's the media's fault to some degree, but the reality is we have mass shootings happening all over the world.
Even as a combat veteran who carries concealed, when I see someone carrying openly, my first thought is, why the hell are they carrying the gun? Are they responsible enough with that gun not to get us all killed getting involved in something they might not be trained for, i.e. COMBAT.
Some things to consider about open-carry: Do you really want to make an armed robber even more nervous when they see your weapon carried openly after barging into a store? They're unlikely to see it until they are in the place. Gauging or rather "gambling" on how a criminal is going to react is dangerous and it could be fatal. They come in and see your gun, you see them, maybe you instinctively reach for the gun, and even hesitate...there's more than a few things that can go wrong here. That kind of stress leads people to do things you would not always expect.
Stats teach us nothing about deterrant because you can't track crimes that don't take place because of open-carry. While most criminals are unlikely to break into a house of a gun-owner, how many criminals really avoid actual crimes because of open-carry? No way to track that info realistically.
If a perp runs into the store armed and sees your gun, you have now become priority number one. Is that safer for you and the others around you? The money the perp wants is insured. Unless he's shooting people, he most likely wants the money and to leave. Everybody else wants to survive. Consider whether it's worth the trouble that can potentially be caused. It could escalate the situation into a fatal encounter in what otherwise would have been survivable. Your decision to openly carry, or even use your gun is one that is made for every person in the area.
I concede carrying concealed is not useful if the gun is not readily available. Mine can be reached and effectively used in seconds (Combat reflexive shooting). A lot of practice and training went into it. I respect everyone's opinion who wants to carry openly but I think it's selfish to just say, well the housewife with her four kids at the grocery store needs to get used to seeing guns on our hips. Carrying is a way of life and a tremendous responsibility. Gunfights are rarely ever clean, and somebody almost always gets hurt. Most rounds fired in combat, even by trained professionals, are not on target. That's an absolute fact. Mostly because people are moving and stress. Moving and shooting is a skill well-beyond what even experienced range shooters are capable of. Especially if bystanders are involved.
Personally, I think someone that wants to carry should do what the U.S. military teaches it's operators to do: Carry concealed where you can access the gun rapidly if you ever needed to. Train harder and more effectively rather than trust your life and everyone else's to the presumption that a criminal will respond the way you want them to.
A CONCEALED CARRY ARGUMENT
This is the real question I feel that should be addressed: How many of us are honestly trained for combat to the point that we would advertise we are ready for it? Most of us that carry are definitely not trained for it. Why escalate where things can go bad, fast? Combat shooting is a serious skill set radically different from range shooting. Carrying openly suggests to someone that you are ready for trouble and that someone looking for trouble will find it. To a criminal, you are also advertising that you are trouble. To bystanders and responding police, you are advertising that you MIGHT be trouble. Bystanders don't know the difference until you part ways.
I'm very well-trained in close quarters combat shooting and in most situations as a citizen, I would not pull the gun. A few important reasons why:
1) rule number four of combat shooting - know your target and what's behind it. Chances are people are behind the perp so you have to look for a shot or create one. The criminal might not have any such reservations. I have a high degree of confidence I'll hit what I'm aiming at. The criminal probably will not under that much stress.
Collateral damage is common in urban gunbattles.
2) money and material possessions, whether insured or not, are not worth the life of SOMEONE ELSE. Innocent people can get hurt. Bullets very often travel through barriers and can hurt if not kill. Why take the chance unless absolutely necessary? Better to get the plate # and description of a car or of the suspect for law enforcement.
3) Taking a life, as was stated before, is not something to be taken lightly.
4) If things go badly, and I think we can all agree they can, you might save the day, and still wind up sued or worse, charged with a crime if things aren't clean. The broader issue: threat assessment and the application of force. If you pull a gun you better be prepared to use it. Was it even justifiable?
I'm not sure about where everybody lives, but people around here that open carry have a tendency to get questioned by police, sometimes with the cuffs on, until their identity is verified. This is a regional matter obviously. But why do they do this in a suburb? Because we're not in Tombstone or Dodge City we're in the suburbs. It has nothing to do with Second Amendment violations and open-carry laws. It's because in this day and age, guns carried openly in the hands of a stranger scares the bejezzuz out of most law-abiding citizens. That's the media's fault to some degree, but the reality is we have mass shootings happening all over the world.
Even as a combat veteran who carries concealed, when I see someone carrying openly, my first thought is, why the hell are they carrying the gun? Are they responsible enough with that gun not to get us all killed getting involved in something they might not be trained for, i.e. COMBAT.
Some things to consider about open-carry: Do you really want to make an armed robber even more nervous when they see your weapon carried openly after barging into a store? They're unlikely to see it until they are in the place. Gauging or rather "gambling" on how a criminal is going to react is dangerous and it could be fatal. They come in and see your gun, you see them, maybe you instinctively reach for the gun, and even hesitate...there's more than a few things that can go wrong here. That kind of stress leads people to do things you would not always expect.
Stats teach us nothing about deterrant because you can't track crimes that don't take place because of open-carry. While most criminals are unlikely to break into a house of a gun-owner, how many criminals really avoid actual crimes because of open-carry? No way to track that info realistically.
If a perp runs into the store armed and sees your gun, you have now become priority number one. Is that safer for you and the others around you? The money the perp wants is insured. Unless he's shooting people, he most likely wants the money and to leave. Everybody else wants to survive. Consider whether it's worth the trouble that can potentially be caused. It could escalate the situation into a fatal encounter in what otherwise would have been survivable. Your decision to openly carry, or even use your gun is one that is made for every person in the area.
I concede carrying concealed is not useful if the gun is not readily available. Mine can be reached and effectively used in seconds (Combat reflexive shooting). A lot of practice and training went into it. I respect everyone's opinion who wants to carry openly but I think it's selfish to just say, well the housewife with her four kids at the grocery store needs to get used to seeing guns on our hips. Carrying is a way of life and a tremendous responsibility. Gunfights are rarely ever clean, and somebody almost always gets hurt. Most rounds fired in combat, even by trained professionals, are not on target. That's an absolute fact. Mostly because people are moving and stress. Moving and shooting is a skill well-beyond what even experienced range shooters are capable of. Especially if bystanders are involved.
Personally, I think someone that wants to carry should do what the U.S. military teaches it's operators to do: Carry concealed where you can access the gun rapidly if you ever needed to. Train harder and more effectively rather than trust your life and everyone else's to the presumption that a criminal will respond the way you want them to.
Welcome to INGO and thanks for joining the discussion.
Not sure when I'll get enough time to address each point from your post, but here's a quick question and thought:
With which method of carry do you think it's more probable that you'll need to use your firearm?
Please consider all possible needs and the probability or frequency of various deadly force encounters.
Being in a place when a robber comes charging in is such an overused hypothetical, it was already addressed in the original post. If this were the most common danger that most citizens regularly faced (rather than being targeted for a physical attack or robbery as an individual), it would warrant some justification for being used so frequently.
Personally, I think it is used more because it's the best scenario people can think of to justify a choice they've already made.
More later...
ETA: I see that you made a whole new thread out of this same post: https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...ts_argument_for_concealed_carry_not_open.html
I'll probably respond in more detail there so it doesn't get lost in the middle of this thread.
Last edited:
A CONCEALED CARRY ARGUMENT
This is the real question I feel that should be addressed: How many of us are honestly trained for combat to the point that we would advertise we are ready for it? Most of us that carry are definitely not trained for it. Why escalate where things can go bad, fast? Combat shooting is a serious skill set radically different from range shooting. Carrying openly suggests to someone that you are ready for trouble and that someone looking for trouble will find it. To a criminal, you are also advertising that you are trouble. To bystanders and responding police, you are advertising that you MIGHT be trouble. Bystanders don't know the difference until you part ways.
I'm very well-trained in close quarters combat shooting and in most situations as a citizen, I would not pull the gun. A few important reasons why:
1) rule number four of combat shooting - know your target and what's behind it. Chances are people are behind the perp so you have to look for a shot or create one. The criminal might not have any such reservations. I have a high degree of confidence I'll hit what I'm aiming at. The criminal probably will not under that much stress.
Collateral damage is common in urban gunbattles.
2) money and material possessions, whether insured or not, are not worth the life of SOMEONE ELSE. Innocent people can get hurt. Bullets very often travel through barriers and can hurt if not kill. Why take the chance unless absolutely necessary? Better to get the plate # and description of a car or of the suspect for law enforcement.
3) Taking a life, as was stated before, is not something to be taken lightly.
4) If things go badly, and I think we can all agree they can, you might save the day, and still wind up sued or worse, charged with a crime if things aren't clean. The broader issue: threat assessment and the application of force. If you pull a gun you better be prepared to use it. Was it even justifiable?
I'm not sure about where everybody lives, but people around here that open carry have a tendency to get questioned by police, sometimes with the cuffs on, until their identity is verified. This is a regional matter obviously. But why do they do this in a suburb? Because we're not in Tombstone or Dodge City we're in the suburbs. It has nothing to do with Second Amendment violations and open-carry laws. It's because in this day and age, guns carried openly in the hands of a stranger scares the bejezzuz out of most law-abiding citizens. That's the media's fault to some degree, but the reality is we have mass shootings happening all over the world.
Even as a combat veteran who carries concealed, when I see someone carrying openly, my first thought is, why the hell are they carrying the gun? Are they responsible enough with that gun not to get us all killed getting involved in something they might not be trained for, i.e. COMBAT.
Some things to consider about open-carry: Do you really want to make an armed robber even more nervous when they see your weapon carried openly after barging into a store? They're unlikely to see it until they are in the place. Gauging or rather "gambling" on how a criminal is going to react is dangerous and it could be fatal. They come in and see your gun, you see them, maybe you instinctively reach for the gun, and even hesitate...there's more than a few things that can go wrong here. That kind of stress leads people to do things you would not always expect.
Stats teach us nothing about deterrant because you can't track crimes that don't take place because of open-carry. While most criminals are unlikely to break into a house of a gun-owner, how many criminals really avoid actual crimes because of open-carry? No way to track that info realistically.
If a perp runs into the store armed and sees your gun, you have now become priority number one. Is that safer for you and the others around you? The money the perp wants is insured. Unless he's shooting people, he most likely wants the money and to leave. Everybody else wants to survive. Consider whether it's worth the trouble that can potentially be caused. It could escalate the situation into a fatal encounter in what otherwise would have been survivable. Your decision to openly carry, or even use your gun is one that is made for every person in the area.
I concede carrying concealed is not useful if the gun is not readily available. Mine can be reached and effectively used in seconds (Combat reflexive shooting). A lot of practice and training went into it. I respect everyone's opinion who wants to carry openly but I think it's selfish to just say, well the housewife with her four kids at the grocery store needs to get used to seeing guns on our hips. Carrying is a way of life and a tremendous responsibility. Gunfights are rarely ever clean, and somebody almost always gets hurt. Most rounds fired in combat, even by trained professionals, are not on target. That's an absolute fact. Mostly because people are moving and stress. Moving and shooting is a skill well-beyond what even experienced range shooters are capable of. Especially if bystanders are involved.
Personally, I think someone that wants to carry should do what the U.S. military teaches it's operators to do: Carry concealed where you can access the gun rapidly if you ever needed to. Train harder and more effectively rather than trust your life and everyone else's to the presumption that a criminal will respond the way you want them to.
Your 4 points are all true but they make no difference if you OC or CC. They are valid for either method of carry. None of them are applicable reasons to CC.
Your only real argument is that you'll be shot first by the bad guy if you OC. That argument has been refuted at least a dozen times in this thread.
ETA: Welcome to INGO and thanks for joining the discussion...and thanks for your service.
Open carrying does not suggest anything other than the fact that you are armed. How one carries themselves, dresses, and their demeanor are the only things that would suggest anything. If some one dresses like a hoodlum and acts like an idiot then yes your statement can be observed as true otherwise it is not so likely. Their are certain "rules" one who carries, be it open or concealed, should follow. I have noticed when I personally OC I get welcomed more by store owners, police, and even the average every day person. This may have to do with me being clean cut, appropriate attire, being well mannered but again that goes to how one handles themselves when OC. I have found through personal experience that more often than not I am perceived as an off duty officer or an "ally" to law enforcement. This is not just my personal experience for a fellow member on another forum who is now a friend of mine shares these experiences as well.
A couple of points to make here for anyone carrying regardless if it is CC or OC:
1) Maintaining good situational awareness at all times. Knowing what is around you and who is around you is a good way to stay ahead of any encounter.
2) Knowing your abilities as a marksman. Awareness of you capabilities and limitations will help you determine if it is worth you putting your finger on that trigger.
3) Choosing your ammunition. There are many options for ammunition. Knowing what type of ammunition to use in different environments makes a difference.
Putting those things together will help save someone's life. I am not suggestion you take the shot as soon as one becomes available because that is not your "job". You as a well informed bystander who is ready for an unwelcoming encounter should always (when possible) call the police first! Having a firearm does not make you a super hero. Nor does having a firearm make you the law. Call the police first and let them do their job. However if the situation gets to the point where you have to make a righteous decision to draw your firearm and put your finger on the trigger to put down an individual who is or can potentially harm (in the process of using deadly force) dozens of others then there should be no hesitation. There would be MORE "collateral damage" if you choose to sit back and let the individual point, aim, & shoot at the innocent bystanders.
1) Again knowing the different types of ammunition and choosing it wisely will help avoid unwanted penetration.
2) As mentioned above it is not your "job" to take manners into your own hands. If it is possible call the police and let them do what they are paid, trained, and equipped to do.
As mentioned above. It would be better to put an individual down who can harm multiple individuals than to sit back and do nothing. You choose which side of the "collateral damage" you want to be on based on the circumstances.
I do agree that things can go bad if you are negligent in your how you handle the situation and you should be aware of the consequences of your actions; however, If you maintain good situational awareness, stay within your abilities as a marksmen, are mindful of the ammunition loaded in your firearm, use your best judgment based on the life of others as well as your own, and do your best to not get involved out side of informing the police on the encounter. Then I would say you have a Better chance at staying away from things going bad.
One can truly never know what skills another individual may or may not have. Best thing you can do is maintain your situational awareness and be prepared to either stay away from the individual in question or possibly (Really depending on the circumstances) assist them.
Forget about how rare this particular situation is (crazed gun men running into rob a place) and instead lets focus on the assumptions. You can never truly know what a criminal is thinking while in the act of committing a crime. You can assume they are just here for the money but in all honesty you can never really know why a criminal is committing a crime. They may be in to get revenge.. Use best judgment based on the circumstances at hand.
I agree. Stat's can't be used because there is no way to prove crime was prevented due to someone carrying. Most shots fired in a gun fight are not on target. It would probably be best to CC when possible. I would like to think that if someone was about to snatch a purse and saw someone across the street with a firearm on their hip they would think twice and likely choose not to. I also think that it is best to only shoot when necessary and not engage in a gunfight. If you have no choice hopefully the police are already on their way. As far as CC vs OC I am a firm believer that if you do not exercise your rights the government while try to find a way to remove them.
I hope you do not take this as an attack. I simply enjoy a good debate. Thank you for your service and your post. It is always good to see the view's of others.
Again this is just my
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