Turkey really shoots down a Mig today

[ArcadiaGP]

Vladimir Putin warns of 'serious consequences' - latest - Telegraph

 

[T.Lex]

Russian attache has labeled it as an ' unfriendly act', which is short of an act of war. Kinda makes me think they know the plane was in Turkish airspace.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Russian attache has labeled it as an ' unfriendly act', which is short of an act of war. Kinda makes me think they know the plane was in Turkish airspace.

Turkey says they warned the pilot "10 times", though.

Do you see this going anywhere? I don't see explosions in Turkey yet... I'd imagine they'll chalk it up to stubbornness. "What are they gonna do, shoot us down? Hah, we're Rus...." BOOM


Edit: 2 Russian pilots from jet downed near Syrian border believed to be alive, Turkish government official says

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Edit: 2 Russian pilots from jet downed near Syrian border believed to be alive, Turkish government official says

"Both of the pilots were retrieved dead. Our comrades opened fire into the air and they died in the air.” https://t.co/VVYgtZz6p9

Firing on parachuting pilots is a war crime. Who's telling the truth?

 

[T.Lex]

This is tough for Putin. Domestically, he sold his Syria campaign on the premise that it would make Russia safer.

Maybe not so much.

This could be archduke Franz Ferdinand all over again.

Also BBC reporting.

Russia was warned over targeting of Turkmen - Turkish media
Posted at 16:50
Turkey's Hurriyet website reports Russia's ambassador to Turkey and the military attache were summoned to the Foreign Ministry last Thursday because of the following allegations:

The operations of the Russian army were taking place in areas very close to Turkey's border, threatening its border security. Turkey noted its rules of engagement were in place and there would be no hesitation to implement them if a violation occurred.
The area where Russian operations were being conducted was free of Islamic State and other terrorist groups and civilian Turkmen were being harmed.
Military operations were causing more civilians to leave their homes. There was concern Russia's operations in that particular region could hurt Turkey's humanitarian efforts.

 

[MisterChester]

I've read it was ordered by Turkmen commanders, not the actual Turkish armed forces. There's a difference.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Turkey says they warned the pilot "10 times", though.

Do you see this going anywhere? I don't see explosions in Turkey yet... I'd imagine they'll chalk it up to stubbornness. "What are they gonna do, shoot us down? Hah, we're Rus...." BOOM


Edit: 2 Russian pilots from jet downed near Syrian border believed to be alive, Turkish government official says

Hilarious

 

[Kutnupe14]

should shooting parachuting pilots be a war crime? I'm not so sure it should be.

 

[T.Lex]

I've read it was ordered by Turkmen commanders, not the actual Turkish armed forces. There's a difference.

Yes, it is the benefit of using proxies.

And ask our air force/army pilots and navy/marine aviators whether shooting parachutes should be a war crime.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Yes, it is the benefit of using proxies.

And ask our air force/army pilots and navy/marine aviators whether shooting parachutes should be a war crime.

It's anybody in a parachute right? You can't shoot airborne guys until they hit the ground, not just aviators, right?

 

[T.Lex]

I believe that's correct, but there is a distinction. An airborne force is invading, it is inherently an offensive active, even if dropping in support. Pilots shot down are not.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Russian military general staff says soldier died in rescue operation for fighter jet downed by Turkey

 

[Kutnupe14]

I believe that's correct, but there is a distinction. An airborne force is invading, it is inherently an offensive active, even if dropping in support. Pilots shot down are not.

If you're a combatant dropping bombs on the enemy, and get shot down, IMO it's fair game to shoot at you after you bail out.

 

[Jludo]

should shooting parachuting pilots be a war crime? I'm not so sure it should be.

It's part of game , they're fair game until they eject, then it's time out until they hit the ground at which point you can scoop them up and tort..ahem interrogate them in an advanced fashion for any Intel they may have.

 

[T.Lex]

Another complication.

Russian solider killed in rescue mission - military
Posted at 18:16BREAKING
A Russian soldier has been killed in the search for the pilots of the downed jet in Syria, the Russian military says.

 

[Jludo]

I agree though that Turkey is no great ally, another necessary evil we've crawled in bed.

 

[Kutnupe14]

How can anyone be mad at Turkey? The rest of NATO has been big *******!

 

[T.Lex]

For what it is worth.

Nato chief says Russian plane did enter Turkish airspace
Posted at 18:23
In the last few minutes, Nato Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg has been making a statement in Brussels.

 

[Alamo]

Speculation on my part, but I think reasonably informed from past history: Russia has been playing chicken with the border for awhile now, and wouldn't surprise me if they have crossed the border before, got away with it, and the Turks finally got fed up with it and posted some F-16s in a combat air patrol with the specific intent to bag a Russky next time he got too close. This scenario has played out on numerous borders between various parties. I read somewhere else that there has been a previously publicly reported incursion by the Russians into Turkish airspace, and wouldn't surprise me if there have been unreported ones. (Oh, here we go: two incursions in two days; note the date: NATO denounces Russian incursion into Turkish airspace | Reuters)

That little chunk of Turkish land that projects into Syria is not very wide (when you're in a jet), and there maybe good tactical reasons why it would be convenient to cross it to attack ground targets. The way the Turkish border curves around limits the approaches one could make, if you respect the border, especially if the targets are backed up against the border. It would be tempting to sneak across that little spit of land and hit the target from the "back" side, especially if the target has air defenses.

 

[T.Lex]

Speculation on my part, but I think reasonably informed from past history: Russia has been playing chicken with the border for awhile now, and wouldn't surprise me if they have crossed the border before, got away with it, and the Turks finally got fed up with it and posted some F-16s in a combat air patrol with the specific intent to bag a Russky next time he got too close. This scenario has played out on numerous borders between various parties. I read somewhere else that there has been a previously publicly reported incursion by the Russians into Turkish airspace, and wouldn't surprise me if there have been unreported ones. (Oh, here we go: two incursions in two days; note the date: NATO denounces Russian incursion into Turkish airspace | Reuters)

That little chunk of Turkish land that projects into Syria is not very wide (when you're in a jet), and there maybe good tactical reasons why it would be convenient to cross it to attack ground targets. The way the Turkish border curves around limits the approaches one could make, if you respect the border, especially if the targets are backed up against the border. It would be tempting to sneak across that little spit of land and hit the target from the "back" side, especially if the target has air defenses.

I tend to agree, also with Kut's point about the Russian pilot being a bit stubborn.

Part of the "warnings" probably included specific directions on how to egress the area. One plane apparently followed the instructions. The other one apparently did not. That is easier to understand if the "bad" pilot saw that it would be quicker to get into friendly airspace by doing his own thing. He may've made a break for it, contrary to the instructions.

So, the Turks lit him up.

Now, Russia is saying they won't communicate with the Turks on deconfliction. This is truly setting up a scenario where more stuff like this can happen. And the Russian CAP pilots are unlikely to worry about borders.

There's a technology issue in play, too. Depending on what the A-A weapon was, the Russian might've been in Turkish airspace when it was launched, but beyond it when he was hit.

Just really messed up.