Veteran with Service Dog asked to leave Gun Show

[Michigan Slim]

Watching a true service dog do their thing is awe inspiring. I used to watch a sheriff deputy work his dog at the school by my house. Loving pet one second, all business the next. I have seen a beagle that can tell when his owner is going to have a seizure. Pretty darn cool.

 

[actaeon277]

Unfortunately there isn't much of a legal standard out there. However there are several reputable services that place properly trained dogs. Canine Companions for Independence is a national organization that does such a thing. If you've spent time around real service dogs it is quite easy to tell if a dog is legit. Using a dog to push off of, stabilize or lean on is a legitimate use, but I can't see how that is useful for an large adult male.

I work in retail and have asked customers to leave with their "service dogs" before. It's easy to tell.

Then you also have broken the law.

From post 91
Service animal means any dog that is individually trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of an individual with a disability, including a physical, sensory, psychiatric, intellectual, or other mental disability.

People bring their pets in and call it a "service dog" does not make it a "service dog".
So, if someone brings their pet in, and calls it a "service dog" but it's not a "service dog" then no, he did not break the law.
The law covers "service dogs" not "pets".

 

[actaeon277]

Fake service dogs a growing problem - NBC News

Fake service dogs a growing problem
Under the Americans with Disabilities Act, it's a federal crime to use a fake dog. And about a fourth of all states have laws against service animal misrepresentation.
Often, people who want to take their pets into restaurants or retail stores just go online to buy vests, backpacks or ID cards with a "service animal" insignia.

 

[Mike Elzinga]

And who gets to decide if a service dog is legit or not legit? The handler. If any store employee asks the handler the 2 questions they are legally allowed to ask and the handler answers them, then asking that handler to leave is illegal. The retailer does not have legal authority to determine, deem or suggest that the animal is not a legit service animal. Consider yourself lucky that you haven't been sued just like the promoter in this story may well be.

 

[Hkindiana]

From post 91
Service animal means any dog that is individually trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of an individual with a disability, including a physical, sensory, psychiatric, intellectual, or other mental disability.

People bring their pets in and call it a "service dog" does not make it a "service dog".
So, if someone brings their pet in, and calls it a "service dog" but it's not a "service dog" then no, he did not break the law.
The law covers "service dogs" not "pets".

True, but you do not have the RIGHT to decide for yourself which dogs are service dogs are not. A diabetic service dog looks just like a "pet" UNTIL it alerts on a problem with blood sugar levels. NO store clerk has the ability to acertain if a dog is truly a service dog or not. The ONLY question that is allowed, is to ask what the particular service is that the animal provides. Making an ASSUMPTION that a dog is not a service dog opens the store clerk AND the store up for major lawsuits. If I had an employee that asked a customer to leave because they did not "believe" that they had a legitimate service dog, I would FIRE THAT EMPLOYEE in a heartbeat.

 

[Mike Elzinga]

Keep in mind that it is totally acceptable for a person to self diagnose their medical issue, obtain a dog from any source they wish, train it to perform any type of assistance, buy a $10 "service dog" vest of Amazon and that dog is now seen as a legitimate service dog in the eyes of the law. Like it or not, that's the law which is clearly spelled out various places. Anyone who wants to question the legitimacy of my service animal can ask the 2 questions legally allowed or prepare themselves for a nearly unwinnable lawsuit.

 

[actaeon277]

And who gets to decide if a service dog is legit or not legit? The handler. If any store employee asks the handler the 2 questions they are legally allowed to ask and the handler answers them, then asking that handler to leave is illegal. The retailer does not have legal authority to determine, deem or suggest that the animal is not a legit service animal. Consider yourself lucky that you haven't been sued just like the promoter in this story may well be.

I work in a steel mill. the chance of me being sued for a service dog is pretty low on the list of things that will kill me..
The retailer does have the right. He just better be right.
The price of being wrong is a lawsuit.

True, but you do not have the RIGHT to decide for yourself which dogs are service dogs are not. A diabetic service dog looks just like a "pet" UNTIL it alerts on a problem with blood sugar levels. NO store clerk has the ability to acertain if a dog is truly a service dog or not. The ONLY question that is allowed, is to ask what the particular service is that the animal provides. Making an ASSUMPTION that a dog is not a service dog opens the store clerk AND the store up for major lawsuits. If I had an employee that asked a customer to leave because they did not "believe" that they had a legitimate service dog, I would FIRE THAT EMPLOYEE in a heartbeat.

The article states that the retailer is allowed to ask 2 questions, those questions were listed.
Why would the retailer be allowed to ask 2 questions to allow the validity of a "service dog" if the retailer could then do nothing about the answers?
Once again, the retailer better be right.
If the retailer is right, and the person sued claiming "service dog", the person then becomes guilty of breaking the law and admitting they did.

 

[actaeon277]

Keep in mind that it is totally acceptable for a person to self diagnose their medical issue, obtain a dog from any source they wish, train it to perform any type of assistance, buy a $10 "service dog" vest of Amazon and that dog is now seen as a legitimate service dog in the eyes of the law. Like it or not, that's the law which is clearly spelled out various places. Anyone who wants to question the legitimacy of my service animal can ask the 2 questions legally allowed or prepare themselves for a nearly unwinnable lawsuit.

Oh no.
You'd win my millions of dollars.

 

[Mike Elzinga]

How do you expect to prove it's a fake service dog when a person can self diagnose their medical condition and train their own dog?

 

[Hkindiana]

If you've spent time around real service dogs it is quite easy to tell if a dog is legit. I work in retail and have asked customers to leave with their "service dogs" before. It's easy to tell.

Yeah, good luck with that. Who made you an expert, and why do you want to open up youself AND your employer to a lawsuit?

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Fake service dogs a growing problem - NBC News

Fake service dogs a growing problem
Under the Americans with Disabilities Act, it's a federal crime to use a fake dog. And about a fourth of all states have laws against service animal misrepresentation.
Often, people who want to take their pets into restaurants or retail stores just go online to buy vests, backpacks or ID cards with a "service animal" insignia.

But kids love to pet fake dogs...

 

[HoughMade]

Keep in mind that it is totally acceptable for a person to self diagnose their medical issue, obtain a dog from any source they wish, train it to perform any type of assistance, buy a $10 "service dog" vest of Amazon and that dog is now seen as a legitimate service dog in the eyes of the law. Like it or not, that's the law which is clearly spelled out various places. Anyone who wants to question the legitimacy of my service animal can ask the 2 questions legally allowed or prepare themselves for a nearly unwinnable lawsuit.

The law regarding what is and is not a "disability" is pretty refined. You may diagnose yourself, but if it came down to a lawsuit, you would have to be objectively correct in your self diagnosis and what you diagnosed yourself with would have to be an actual disability.

 

[Hkindiana]

It would be interesting to see how the promoter responds at the next Stout Field or Evansville show if half a dozen people with service animals tried to get in

 

[nakinate]

And who gets to decide if a service dog is legit or not legit? The handler. If any store employee asks the handler the 2 questions they are legally allowed to ask and the handler answers them, then asking that handler to leave is illegal. The retailer does not have legal authority to determine, deem or suggest that the animal is not a legit service animal. Consider yourself lucky that you haven't been sued just like the promoter in this story may well be.

When the customer is dragging the frightened dog across my front end by their leash it's a dead give away that it's not a legit service dog. If the dog has a vest and is well behaved I have no issues going along with it even if I don't think it's legit. The second the dog acts out or improper in any way I'm tossing it out. Customer safety is paramount, not the feelings of someone faking it.

 

[nakinate]

Then you also have broken the law.

Yeah, I speed all the time, but I haven't broken the law in regard to this issue.

 

[Mike Elzinga]

Yea, your perception of its legitimacy doesn't really have a legal leg to stand on. I don't see anywhere in the ADA guidelines where it allows to a store owner to refuse service if they perceive the animal to be fake. The ADA guidelines also allow for trainers, and all
dogs start somewhere. I'm not saying you are wrong or that particular scenario wasn't a fake dog, but I really hope you weigh the cost of those actions versus the benefit. I've already been involved with 2 parties who won lawsuits based on similiar stories.

 

[nakinate]

Yea, your perception of its legitimacy doesn't really have a legal leg to stand on. I don't see anywhere in the ADA guidelines where it allows to a store owner to refuse service if they perceive the animal to be fake. The ADA guidelines also allow for trainers, and all
dogs start somewhere. I'm not saying you are wrong or that particular scenario wasn't a fake dog, but I really hope you weigh the cost of those actions versus the benefit. I've already been involved with 2 parties who won lawsuits based on similiar stories.

Read what I said. A) The dog was being dragged across the floor. B) if the dog is well behaved then I'll go along with it.

I don't make a habit out of this, but just because you say your poorly trained pet is a service animal and have no documentation to back it up doesn't make it so. As I have said, I've spent my life around service dogs. I'm pretty sure I'm wise enough to practice appropriate discretion in this matter.

 

[HoughMade]

Where vets and dogs are concerned, INGO is all about federal regulation.

 

[nakinate]

Where vets and dogs are concerned, INGO is all about federal regulation.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Where vets and dogs are concerned, INGO is all about federal regulation.

One would think you would know more with having a Juris Doctorate.. but INGO always knows best.









Purple implied.