What makes a good club level stage?

[rvb]

I've seen quite a bit of what cameramonkey wants in idpa (even at majors). never really makes the stages more fun or challenging, just less fair. you can't move targets around and have the shooting challenge be exactly the same for everyone.

the closest I've seen in uspsa was a technically illegal stage where you drew a card and the suit you drew was the NS target on an array. technically illegal, basically a 'gotcha' if you messed up. kinda fun just because it was something different.

I even have that one on vid (incl proof for some I did in fact shoot open at one time).

[video=youtube;wqL3N65xACg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqL3N65xACg[/video]

-rvb

 

[BillD]

I ran IDPA State and Regional matches years back with a blind stage in them. Blocked off a bay with 10ft tall black plastic. That didn't stop one Master shooter from sending his buddy to shoot first and then come back and explaining the "blind" COF to him.
It really doesn't work unless you segregate shooters afterwords. And how are you going to manage that?

 

[CB45]

Simmer down; you missed my point. There is a difference between a gotcha, and a known, blind target configured within a specific set of parameters. In my mind, a gotcha is as one person stated... multiple swingers, insane targets, etc. Something designed to drive down scores on purpose and make it harder than it needs to be.

The problem stated with blind targets (RVB's first point in Post 11) is that its hard to keep them truly blind due to those that have seen it and may spill the beans. I was just spitballing a way to keep a portion of the CoF truly blind to make it interesting, without being too hard to pull off. You know at one point you are going to have three targets, one will be partially obscured by a no shoot. But which one? Without knowing EXACTLY how the targets are laid out you cant completely visualize what you are going to do as you lean around that cover. its not a gotcha if you know its coming and in and of itself is not difficult.

And relax. I'm not trying to completely understand stage design... just throwing out ideas as a novice as prefaced in my post. Sometimes the best ideas come from someone who through ignorance, thinks outside the box on accident because they dont know where the sides of the box are.

Or did I miss the OP's caveat that comments were only welcome from experts who have attended a RO class and completely understand the sport in every possible way?

So the OP is trying to poll Indiana USPSA shooters so that he can tailor his matches to what people are looking for.

Nothing wrong with trying to think outside the box. Innovation is attained when the parameters are known. Without knowing the rules, you are likely breaking the rules. I encourage you to get involved and learn. There is most likely a reason things are done the way they are. S

Changing target arrays is exactly a "gotcha" move. When I shoot a stage, I know where every target is and what it looks like. Changing that for every shooter does not present a fair shooting challenge. USPSA isn't tactical dynamic situation preparation. If that's what you are into, IDPA may be more your style. They do lots of real life situation preparation.

 

[rhino]

It seems like there may be a variety of issues here impacting your view of fixed time stages. They have to be properly planned. Kind of like shotgun side matches.

That's correct, sir. And what you did there? I saw it!

I'm not sure it's possible to design a fixed time stage that will both challenge the best shooters as well as allow enough time for the newbies to get most of the shots fired. Given that, it seems like they're best reserved for Section, Area, and Nationals matches where you need tools to help differentiate between good, really good, great, and the best.

 

[rvb]

I'm not sure it's possible to design a fixed time stage that will both challenge the best shooters as well as allow enough time for the newbies to get most of the shots fired.

getting all the shots off shouldn't be the goal of the course design. It's perfectly ok, even preferable, if only a fraction of the shots are fired (even by the best shooters, else you get ties and the stage is a waste). You don't get FTE's. It's all about maximizing points in a given amount of time. Better shooters are going to get off more shots and make better hits than newer shooters. that shouldn't be a bad/unexpected thing. heck, look at the positive comments the ProAm format got recently here, and it's fixed time.

I love fixed time courses, but don't put them in matches because I know I'm in a very small minority... and the majority is never shy about letting you know their opinion of a fixed time stage.

Hmm... you may have just doomed the NE folks... maybe I'll put in a fixed time course next month.... [evil laugh].

[video=youtube;JfUM5xHUY4M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfUM5xHUY4M[/video]

-rvb

 

[rhino]

Hey, Ryan:

I didn't say "all," but most. I understand the concept of managing time and under those circumstances, I know for me (when I was concerned about scores) I tried to get as many A hits as I could instead of trying to get all the shots fired. But it's still discouraging when the par time for a string is 2.5 seconds and several of the newer guys only get a couple of shots fired and no good hits because they're rushing.

 

[Coach]

Sometimes we need to shoot stages that are outside our comfort zone so that we are well-rounded and so that we improve. The only way to get better at something: fixed time, SHO, WHO, Shooting on the move, small steel is to get out there and shoot it.

 

[jakemartens]

That sort of thing actually wouldn't be without precedent, surprisingly enough. The 1993 World shoot did it.

World Shoot X 1993 - YouTube

That is not the first time Kay has kicked a mens rooms door open like that I bet

 

[blkrifle]

Sometimes we need to shoot stages that are outside our comfort zone so that we are well-rounded and so that we improve. The only way to get better at something: fixed time, SHO, WHO, Shooting on the move, small steel is to get out there and shoot it.

+1

 

[rhino]

Sometimes we need to shoot stages that are outside our comfort zone so that we are well-rounded and so that we improve. The only way to get better at something: fixed time, SHO, WHO, Shooting on the move, small steel is to get out there and shoot it.

Fixed time course of fire on its way to RileyCC!

For what it's worth, pretty much every element of USPSA shooting it outside of my personal comfort zone. That's what it's good practice.

 

[riverman67]

Thanks Rhino!

 

[Coach]

Fixed time course of fire on its way to RileyCC!

For what it's worth, pretty much every element of USPSA shooting it outside of my personal comfort zone. That's what it's good practice.

We have done them before, but not lately.

 

[a zone]

I like a stage that has a mix of long and hoser shots. Draw into a single plate at 15 plus yards and off to the races. With some mid range targets mixed in to mess with your splits. Club matches are practice with witnesses. So mix it up and learn your weaknesses. And as others have said step and draw up something for your local match.

 

[rhino]

I like a stage that has a mix of long and hoser shots. Draw into a single plate at 15 plus yards and off to the races. With some mid range targets mixed in to mess with your splits. Club matches are practice with witnesses. So mix it up and learn your weaknesses. And as others have said step and draw up something for your local match.

I like that, sir! I shall quote you.

(good shooting with you on Sunday too!)

 

[Hogwylde]

Folks who don't know the posters might not know if this is a USPSA only thread ?

Excellent point. You are right. Didn't know who Coach is.....didn't know he was referring to USPSA ONLY matches. As someone who competes in Steel Challenge, IDPA, INMG, Friday Night Steel, or any other fun shooting competition.......I was giving requested input for what I liked in "club level" matches. What specific sport the match was for wasn't specified.

And, I HAVE seen it done. Multiple targets behind barriers with the no shoots changed after every shooter. One shooter couldn't tell the next shooter how to run it because the RO moved the shirts from one target to the next after pasting. No one knew ahead of time where the no shoots would be. It took all of 30 seconds for the RO to move the shirts and keep everyone guessing.

 

[rhino]

And, I HAVE seen it done. Multiple targets behind barriers with the no shoots changed after every shooter. One shooter couldn't tell the next shooter how to run it because the RO moved the shirts from one target to the next after pasting. No one knew ahead of time where the no shoots would be. It took all of 30 seconds for the RO to move the shirts and keep everyone guessing.

That's great and a lot of us have done that in the past. The thing is, each time you change something, you're no longer presenting the same challenge to the next competitor. Again, fine for training and fun and for people who agree to do it, but no-go for competitions like USPSA and IDPA where the challenge has to be the same for everyone.

 

[a zone]

I like that, sir! I shall quote you.

(good shooting with you on Sunday too!)

I enjoyed your company as well. I have quoted you on many occasions so fair is fair.

 

[Cameramonkey]

That's great and a lot of us have done that in the past. The thing is, each time you change something, you're no longer presenting the same challenge to the next competitor. Again, fine for training and fun and for people who agree to do it, but no-go for competitions like USPSA and IDPA where the challenge has to be the same for everyone.

id argue that if it's 3 targets with a shirt being moved, it is the same for all shooters. They all have the same targets, the same no shoot, and all are ignorant of the configuration prior to the run. As long as the stands don't move I really don't see how it's an advantage to anyone. If the targets moved around ( forward, back, closer/farther apart, etc) then I could see a difference.

 

[Rob377]

id argue that if it's 3 targets with a shirt being moved, it is the same for all shooters. They all have the same targets, the same no shoot, and all are ignorant of the configuration prior to the run. As long as the stands don't move I really don't see how it's an advantage to anyone. If the targets moved around ( forward, back, closer/farther apart, etc) then I could see a difference.

You'd argue that based on how many years of competition shooting experience, again?

 

[a zone]

You have to give each and every shooter the same stage. A nine foot transition is not the same as a three foot transition. It is just math. All of the shooting sports I have participated in have the same mantra. A level playing field for all.