Lets point guns at each other!

[rvb]

It really depends who you are talking to Coach. Some very much believe this to be the case. Grossman's whole one book is about this type of thing.... If you believe the video game blamers, I would say yes.

Grossman was a video game blamer.... seems playing video games must be the best way to get the proper mindset as you don't have to endanger anyone else in the process (well, whole villages may be wiped out in the violent aftermath, but the training process is safer). I prefer Super Mario Bros.

-rvb

 

[cedartop]

Grossman was a video game blamer.... seems playing video games must be the best way to get the proper mindset as you don't have to endanger anyone else in the process (well, whole villages may be wiped out in the violent aftermath, but the training process is safer). I prefer Super Mario Bros.

-rvb

I am not a fan of Grossman or his material. I simply reference him because a lot of people think his feces has no odor.

 

[rhino]

It really depends who you are talking to Coach. Some very much believe this to be the case. Grossman's whole one book is about this type of thing. I happen to believe that humans are completely capable of doing violence to one another without help. In good people however a lot of that has been conditioned out, hence the concern that many won't be able to pull the trigger if the need should arise. It definitely happens. Does pointing guns at other people during FOF help with this? I don't know. If you believe the video game blamers, I would say yes.

There was a time when I was overly concerned with whether or not I could complete the required actions under such dire circumstances. Time and experience in other very high stress situations has lef me to believe I won't freeze and I will be able to do what I need to do (if I have the opportunity).

One lesson I learned was in training, which has been repeated multiple times since then. It was a "room clearing" class and one the things on my mind that week was whether or not I could press the trigger if the need arose. During one of of the exercises while armed with a blue gun/inert replica, I reacted to a threat by moving (more quickly than I thought possible) and pressing the trigger when the front sight moved into my line of sight at the threat. Does that prove beyond all doubt that I will always do that? No, but it's as good of an indication as any that I am capable of doing it. For what it's worth, I tend to immerse myself psychologically and emotionally into such scenarios as much as possible. It's not "real," but it's as close as I intend to get.

 

[Coach]

Grossman was a video game blamer.... seems playing video games must be the best way to get the proper mindset as you don't have to endanger anyone else in the process (well, whole villages may be wiped out in the violent aftermath, but the training process is safer). I prefer Super Mario Bros.

-rvb

Yes he blames video games like Grand Theft Auto that have no redeeming value as adversely affecting the youth of America. He also blames TV for much of the same thing. I have heard him talk about it for several hours. I am not sure where I stand on the subject. Poorly raised kids with a serious lack of parental supervision and not moral or ethical upbringing who are raise by TV set and video games I could see being very warped and having a lot of damage done.

This other business of pointing pistols at each other in order overcome the conditioning of society and civilization... well let's just say I am skeptical and I think it will be a tough thing to prove.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Putting your sights on a real person and pulling the trigger is an important mindset drill.

But that is NOT how it should be done.

There is a reason that Force on Force is such a good training technique.

There is also a reason that they use simunitions.

If I went to a training that followed those procedures, maybe. Without them? Not a ____ing chance in hell.

 

[medcoxo]

Whoever is instructing that practice needs to be removed from training people. There are too many 'sim guns' that can be used. Even a real gun that has been de-mied'.
When dry firing/cleaning, I double/triple/quadruple check to make sure my weapon is unloaded and safe.

 

[straight-shooter]

I'll trust my own practices but no way could I enter a class full of people and participate in a drill like this. Instructor or not, it ain't happnin'.

 

[GIJEW]

Putting your sights on a real person and pulling the trigger is an important mindset drill.

But that is NOT how it should be done.

Right. Read Col. Grossman's "On Killing" to get an idea of the hurdle here. As a soldier in training 32 years ago, we would split up into opposing forces and "fight" each other either "dry-fire" or with blanks. The Capt. even ran behind us sometimes shooting over our heads and around our feet. With simunitions etc, there's no reason for that now--especially in a weekend class

 

[ChalupaCabras]

When I first went through pistol training with the department, part of the weapon retention training revolved around drawing your pistol and dry-firing at the person (classmate) who was attempting to dissarm you. This was a full force encounter, and it did not end until one of you was "dead". Bloody noses and cracked ribs were a fact.

The difference was, this drill was not done on the range - but rather in a classroom before live ammunition was ever issued.

 

[cedartop]

.
The difference was, this drill was not done on the range - but rather in a classroom before live ammunition was ever issued.

Not sure how much of a difference that is. I watched a training sergeant put a round from his "unloaded" back up revolver into the squad room floor.

 

[Denny347]

Not sure how much of a difference that is. I watched a training sergeant put a round from his "unloaded" back up revolver into the squad room floor.

We use yellow plastic barrels in our recruits G22's for that now. They get used to carrying, dry firing, and gun retention with their actual sidearm without the capability of loading a live round into it accidentally. They do not have access to the barrels until live range.

 

[esrice]

We use yellow plastic barrels in our recruits G22's for that now. They get used to carrying, dry firing, and gun retention with their actual sidearm without the capability of loading a live round into it accidentally. They do not have access to the barrels until live range.

You can thank INGOer Expatriated for inventing that little gem.

 

[Denny347]

You can thank INGOer Expatriated for inventing that little gem.

Ha, I was thinking to myself "so simple, why did I not think of that?" It's genius really.

 

[esrice]

Ha, I was thinking to myself "so simple, why did I not think of that?" It's genius really.

Agreed-- especially when used at the department level. It's perfect for what you've described.

 

[ChalupaCabras]

That does sound like a good, practical idea. All we have access to at the moment are orange plastic snap caps.

 

[esrice]

For those interested in what Denny was talking about: Training Barrel | Blade Tech

 

[G7.]

Just a thought. For when an IDPA target is just not enough...

 

[Denny347]

Doesnt seem like a very smart idea to point anykind of gun at anybody just MPO

Force on force training kinda requires it. Glock blue guns are real guns.

 

[Jagunn]

Force on force training kinda requires it. Glock blue guns are real guns.

You cant forget about one in the chamber in a blue gun. I would feel better about using blue guns to do training with. I believe the original post though was referring to a real gun being used in the demonstration.

 

[target64]

Here the instructors do a little more than just point guns at students.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rI01qKAqYts